A statement like “Women want {thing}” leaves it unclear what the map is even supposed to be, barring clear context cues. This can lead to either fake disagreements or fake agreements.
Fake disagreements (“You said that Republicans are against gun control, but I know some who aren’t!”) are not too dangerous, I think. X makes the generalization, Y points out the exception, X says that it was a broad generalization, Y asks for more clarity in the future, X says Y was not being sufficiently charitable, and so on. Annoying to watch, but not likely to generate bad ideas.
Fake agreements can lead to deeper confusion. If X seriously believes that 99% of women have some property, and Y believes that only 80% of women have some property, then they may both agree with the generalization even if they have completely different ideas about what a charitable reading would be!
It costs next to nothing to say “With very few exceptions, women...”, “A strong majority of women....” or “Most women....” The three statements mean different things, and establishing the meaning does not make communication next-to-impossible; it makes communication clearer. This isn’t about charity, but clarity.
I in another subthread referenced the “Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality” ‘fanfic’ written by Eliezer, when he mentioned how many fewer digits of Pi rational!Harry knew as compared to rational!Hermione.
The point is that I’m concerned not with charity nor with clarity, but rather with sufficiency to the current medium. Each of those little “costs next to nothing” statements actually do have a cost, one that isn’t necessarily clear initially.
Are you familiar at all with how errors propagate in measurements? Each time you introduce new provisos, those statements affect the “informational value” of each dependent statement in its nest. This creates an analogous situation to the concept of significant digits in discourse.
For a topic like lukeprog’s, in other words, the difference between 99% and 80% of women is below the threshold of significance. Eliminating it altogether (until such time as it becomes significant) is an important and valuable practice in communication.
Failure to effectively exercise that practice will result in needless ‘clarifications’ distracting from the intended message, hampering dialogs with unnecessary cognitive burden resultant from additional nesting of “informational quanta.” In other words; if you add too many provisos to a statement, an otherwise meaningful and useful one will become trivially useless. An example of this in action can be found in another subthread of this conversation where someone stated he felt that there is a ‘trend among frequent LessWrongers to over-generalize”. This has informational meaning. He later added a ‘clarification’ that he hadn’t intended the statement as an indication of population size, which totally reversed the informational value of his statement from an interesting one to a statement so utterly trivial that it is effectively without meaning or usefulness.
The point is that I’m concerned not with charity nor with clarity, but rather with sufficiency to the current medium. Each of those little “costs next to nothing” statements actually do have a cost, one that isn’t necessarily clear initially.
Not adding those statements also has a cost.
in other words, the difference between 99% and 80% of women is below the threshold of significance.
Honestly, you don’t know how many potential rationalists may find a post seemingly making unchallenged sweeping generalizations about women, and decide that these so-called rationalists are just a group of bigoted idiots that are less rational than your average person-in-the-street.
It’s okay for someone to to say that pi is “3.14” if the other person knows that you know in reality it has more digits than that, and you’re just being sufficient for your purposes. In short if there’s actual transparency, not a double illusion of such.
But if they don’t know that, if every post of yours may be perceived as an indication of complete positions (not hasty approximations thereof), it costs less to do things like say “most women” instead of “women” (or add a general disclaimer at the beginning) rather than not do it.
This is trivially true. What does adding them add to a conversation to which they are not relevant or significant?
Honestly, you don’t know how many potential rationalists may find a post seemingly making unchallenged sweeping generalizations about women, and decide that these so-called rationalists are just a group of bigoted idiots that are less rational than your average person-in-the-street.
This is uncontestably true. But the opposite is also true; you don’t know how many potential rationalists may find a post filled with provisos and details and, upon discovering a massive gulf of an inferential gap, give up on even attempting to understand.
[Re: Pi “is” 3.14] In short if there’s actual transparency, not a double illusion of such.
Certainly.
But if they don’t know that, if every post of yours may be perceived as an indication of complete positions (not hasty approximations thereof)
This is a gross misrepresentation of my statements, to the point of being nothing remotely like what I advocate. I have repeatedly advocated not the elimination of precision but the application of only the relevant degree of precision to the nature of the discourse at hand.
it costs less to do things like say “most women” instead of “women” (or add a general disclaimer at the beginning) rather than not do it.
My point is not restricted to ‴”most women” instead of “women”‴. It is a generalized principle which happens to apply here. For any given conversation there are thousands of such details we must choose to parse for relevance to a conversation. Demanding unerring accuracy beyond relevance is simply damaging to dialogue.
Each of those little “costs next to nothing” statements actually do have a cost, one that isn’t necessarily clear initially.
The cost of omitting them isn’t clear initially, either.
Are you familiar at all with how errors propagate in measurements? Each time you introduce new provisos, those statements affect the “informational value” of each dependent statement in its nest. This creates an analogous situation to the concept of significant digits in discourse.
I was generally taught to carry significant figures further than strictly necessary to avoid introducing rounding errors. If my final answer would have 3 significant digits, using a few buffer digits seemed wise. They’re cheap.
Propagation of uncertainty is not a reason to drop qualifiers. It’s a reason to use them. When reading an argument based on a generalization, I want to know the exceptions BEFORE the argument begins, not afterwards. That way, I can have a sense of how the uncertainties in each step affect the final conclusion.
For a topic like lukeprog’s, in other words, the difference between 99% and 80% of women is below the threshold of significance. Eliminating it altogether (until such time as it becomes significant) is an important and valuable practice in communication.
If I want an answer to three significant figures, I do not begin my reasoning by rounding to two sigfigs, then trying to add in the last sigfig later.
If one person thinks that an argument depends on an assumption that fails in 1 in 100 cases, and someone else thinks the assumption fails in 1 in 5 cases, and they don’t even know that they disagree, and pointing out this disagreement is regarded as some kind of map-territory error, they will have trouble even noticing when the disagreement has become significant.
Failure to effectively exercise that practice will result in needless ‘clarifications’ distracting from the intended message, hampering dialogs with unnecessary cognitive burden resultant from additional nesting of “informational quanta.” In other words; if you add too many provisos to a statement, an otherwise meaningful and useful one will become trivially useless.
This tends to happen to bad generalizations, yes. Once you consider all of the cases in which they are wrong, suddenly they seem to only be true in the trivial cases!
Good generalizations are still useful even after you have noted places where they are less likely to hold. Adding any number of true provisos will not make them trivial.
As for the cognitive load, why not state assumptions at the beginning of an essay where possible, rather than adding them to each individual statement? If the reader shares the assumptions, they’ll just nod and move on. If the reader does NOT share the assumptions, then relieving them of the cognitive burden of being aware of disagreement is not a service.
As for the cognitive load, why not state assumptions at the beginning of an essay where possible,
I just now caught this, and… this is, I believe, where we have our fundamental disconnect.
By restricting the dialogue to essays the overwhelming majority of the meaningfulness of what I’m trying to say is entirely eliminated: my statements have been aimed at discussing the heuristic of measuring the cognitive burden per “unit” of information when communicating. The fact is that in a pre-planned document of basically any type one can safely assume a vastly greater available “pool of cognition” in his audience than in, say, a one-off comment in response to it, a youtube video comment, or something said over beers on a Friday night with your drinking-buddies.
I am struck by the thought that this metaphorically very similar to how Newton’s classical mechanics equations manifest themselves from quantum mechanics after you introduce enough systems, or how the general relativity equations become effectively conventional at “non-relativistic” speeds: when you change the terms of the equations the apparent behaviors become significantly different. Just like how there’s no need to bother considering your own relativistic mass when deciding whether or not to go on a diet, the heuristic I’m trying to discuss is vanishingly irrelevant to anything that one should expect from a thought-out-in advance, unrestricted-in-length, document.
I’m sort of puzzled, though, as to how I could have possibly interpreted your statements as applying to anything but the post and the comments on it; I saw no context clues suggesting that you meant “in everyday conversation.” Did I miss these?
That said, if one of us had added just three or four words of proviso earlier, limiting our generalizations explicitly, we could have figured the disconnect out more quickly. I could have said that my generalizations apply best to essays and edited posts. You could have said that your generalizations apply best to situations where the added cost of qualifiers carries a higher burden.
Because we did not explicitly qualify our generalizations, but instead relied on context, we fell prey to a fake disagreement. However, any vindication I feel at seeing my point supported is nullified by the realization that I, personally, failed to apply the communication strategy that I was promoting.
I saw no context clues suggesting that you meant “in everyday conversation.” Did I miss these?
My language throughout was highly generalized. Consider my opening statement: “I am troubled by the vehemence by which people seem to reject the notion of using the language of the second-order simulacrum—especially in communities that should be intimately aware of the concept that the map is not the territory.”
And then also consider the fact that I used the term “discourse”.
I didn’t mean “everyday communication” specifically—it simply is the venue where such a heuristic is most overtly valuable and noticeable. I did not qualify my generalizations because there were no qualifications to make: I was meaning the general sense.
You could have said that your generalizations apply best to situations where the added cost of qualifiers carries a higher burden.
Quite frankly, I did. That would be a modifying element to the “threshold of significance”. (I.e.; “Is the cost of adding item X to this conversation greater than the value item X provides to the depth or breadth of information I am attempting to convey? If yes, do not add it. If no, do.”) Because I was discussing so highly generalized a principle / heuristic, the fact that situations where added cost of qualifiers cost a higher burden is simply an inexorable conclusion from the assertion.
Well, it’s tough: When I mean to be general and I use generalized terminology, should I not have the expectation of having communicated that my case is generalized?
a thought-out-in advance, unrestricted-in-length, document.
For a moderately loose definition of ‘thought out in advance’, this describes most text-based, internet-based communication, and certainly the types of communication that can happen on LW.
I don’t see how your question is relevant to the topic at hand. I usually spend less than 15 minutes writing any given comment—most of mine are relatively short—but that’s not counting time spent thinking about a topic and figuring out if I have something to say about it at all, which varies wildly and has been known to last days in some cases. But even in instances where I come up with a response near-instantly, it’s generally because I’ve previously spent time thinking about the particular issue, and as a result have a high-quality cached response available, which certainly seems to fit the criteria for ‘thought out in advance’!
But even in instances where I come up with a response near-instantly, it’s generally because I’ve previously spent time thinking about the particular issue, and as a result have a high-quality cached response available,
Given that your personal commenting history on this site is extremely limited comparatively speaking I can’t really say that I disagree with you directly on this.
But we weren’t talking about just you personally, we were talking about “most text-based, internet-based communication”. And you seem to be an exception, not a rule, when it comes to the normal dialogue/discourse I see in the commenting threads of LW. And LW itself is by far vastly the exception to the rule when it comes to dealing with statements made as a result from pre-formed thoughts.
That being said—I would hope we can both agree that the notion that one can prepare for all possible conversations in advance regardless of topic is simply ludicrous without something resembling the heuristics I am trying to put a spotlight on.
How many hours do you [emphasis yours] spend on each comment you make?
If you’re going to change the subject, at least don’t try to act like I’m doing something wrong when I politely go along with the subject change, okay?
we were talking about “most text-based, internet-based communication”.
Most text-based, internet-based communication has very little in the way of time pressure, and LessWrong specifically has a norm of allowing or even encouraging comments on older posts and comments, allowing for arbitrary levels of pre-thinking. Length restrictions are slightly more common on the internet at large, but still not the norm, and not present here. This, in the context of your original comment—plus the implication that since it is possible to do those things, any case where someone doesn’t is a matter of personal choice or (problematic, in my opinion) group norms—was the entirety of my original point.
I do agree that the idea of having cached responses to all conversational possibilities is ridiculous. I wasn’t proposing that that is a thing that people should particularly try to do. My point, insofar as I had a point and wasn’t just answering your question on the assumption that you had some use for the information, was that that is one of the tactics that I’ve found to work, the other main one being to actually take the time to think my responses through, even if that takes a while.
And you seem to be an exception, not a rule, when it comes to the normal dialogue/discourse I see in the commenting threads of LW. And LW itself is by far vastly the exception to the rule when it comes to dealing with statements made as a result from pre-formed thoughts.
I am not at all sure what you’re trying to communicate, here. One possible way of parsing it suggests that you might think that since LW is already well above average in terms of good communication, making it better shouldn’t be a priority, which I disagree with. I’d strongly prefer a clarification of your actual intent to a discussion of that idea if it wasn’t what you were trying to communicate, though.
How many hours do you [emphasis yours] spend on each comment you make?
If you’re going to change the subject, at least don’t try to act like I’m doing something wrong when I politely go along with the subject change, okay?
I was using an example to demonstrate the intended meaning (which apparently was not a well-aimed one given the fact that you are statistically aberrant). I was not changing the topic.
Most text-based, internet-based communication has very little in the way of time pressure,
If I cared about time pressure as opposed to cognitive burden -- that is, available attention span—I would have indicated so. I don’t, so this isn’t relevant.
and LessWrong specifically has a norm of allowing or even encouraging comments on older posts and comments, allowing for arbitrary levels of pre-thinking.
Even so, my point remains easily demonstrated by a perusal of the majority of comments, which are typically made in a “conversational” rather than “ex post facto” mode. (We, right now, are in that conversational mode.)
This, in the context of your original comment—plus the implication that since it is possible to do those things, so any cases where someone doesn’t is a matter of personal choice or (problematic, in my opinion) group norms—was the entirety of my original point.
A) that wasn’t my original comment.
B) Your counter-point as I understand it still remains invalid, to be quite honest, because you’re—I cannot help but feel intentionally at this point—refusing to recognize the fact that you’re using statistical outliers instead of norms to support your claims against what I have already stated explicitly was a heuristic.
And you seem to be an exception, not a rule, when it comes to the normal dialogue/discourse I see in the commenting threads of LW. And LW itself is by far vastly the exception to the rule when it comes to dealing with statements made as a result from pre-formed thoughts.
I am not at all sure what you’re trying to communicate, here. One possible way of parsing it suggests that you might think that since LW is already well above average in terms of good communication, making it better shouldn’t be a priority,
No, that is not a valid interpretation of my statement. You leave out the context provided by antecedent statement of mine (same comment) that necessarily influences the meaning: “Given that your personal commenting history on this site is extremely limited comparatively speaking I can’t really say that I disagree with you directly on this.” It is clear that how I said you were different was in that you have a limited commenting history.
I’d strongly prefer a clarification of your actual intent to a discussion of that idea if it wasn’t what you were trying to communicate, though.
I seem to have some strong difficulties in communicating with you any of my intended meanings at pretty much any point. I’m not at all certain why this is the case, as I do not normally have this difficulty with an audience. I have noted that you have left out contextually significantly relevant points/items in coming to your interpretations of my words as I have written them.
I do not know why that is happening, but it makes me feel that this conversation is never going to go anywhere but frustrate me. So no, you won’t get that clarification; but not because I wouldn’t like to give it.
I was generally taught to carry significant figures further than strictly necessary to avoid introducing rounding errors.
Which is why I also discussed error propagation, which compounds.
Propagation of uncertainty is not a reason to drop qualifiers. It’s a reason to use them.
I can only say that you are reading the metaphor too literally given the examples I’ve given thus far.
If I want an answer to three significant figures, I do not begin my reasoning by rounding to two sigfigs, then trying to add in the last sigfig later.
Of course!!! This isn’t applicable to dialogue, however, as it has the opposite problem: the degree of cognitive burden to retain the informational value of a statement increases with the increased complexity. There is a limit on how much of this can be done in a given conversation.
Increasing complexity of statements to increase their accuracy can cause the ability to comprehend a statement to be reduced.
If the reader does NOT share the assumptions, then relieving them of the cognitive burden of being aware of disagreement is not a service.
This statement carries a specific assumption of depth of dialogue which may or may not be valid.
Seems is the key here. Any instance where you would use that sort of language, the relevant threshold of significance was such that it was a proper statement to make.
Consider a context where you were making that statement to a Jehovah’s Witness trying to hand you a flyer as your 10 o’clock bus was stopping in front of you. You could still make the statement, but if you were being honest with yourself you’d realize that your words would be gibberish, whereas “I’m not Christian” would be contextually appropriate: you would convey a statement with non-zero informational value. “The probability that ‘Christianity is correct’ is epsilon” on the other hand would not in such a context, quite likely, actually convey any meaning to the audience.
It is, as far as I can tell, safe to assume that everyone who reads LW understands enough about probabilities that saying ‘zero’ would communicate exactly the same concept regarding the probability at hand as saying ‘epsilon’, if we had a norm of allowing the former. The reason for doing the latter is about signaling, in much the same way that saying ‘most women’ instead of just ‘women’ is about signaling. In both cases, the point of the signal is to encourage accurate thought in the long run, rather than letting a small amount of convenience in the near term to outweigh that.
Either you have or I have. As I believe I understand entirely what your position here is, I can’t help but wonder.
It is, as far as I can tell, safe to assume that everyone who reads LW understands enough about probabilities that saying ‘zero’ would communicate exactly the same concept regarding the probability at hand as saying ‘epsilon’, if we had a norm of allowing the former.
Here’s the thing: nothing I’ve been saying was tailored at any point to be specific to Less Wrong in particular.
It’s also not a safe assumption, by the way, for the simple fact there is at least one person who recommends this community to every budding (or potential) rationalist he encounters—me. At least one of those persons (my ex-primary of 10 years) has an exceedingly poor capability of grasping mathematics and probabilities. This was one of the reasons she and I didn’t make it past that 10 year mark.
The reason for doing the latter is about signaling, in much the same way that saying ‘most women’ instead of just ‘women’ is about signaling.
See, I suspect there might be a political element to this as well. I for one would strongly prefer that the second-order simulacrum be the standard assumption rather than requiring continued increased cognitive burden in discourse. It is true that we think in language; and therefore the language we use shapes our thoughts—but language is a memeplex of symbolic representations of semantical content/value. If we adjust the symbol, we adjust the thought. But this is now becoming an altogether different topic of conversation.
the point of the signal is to encourage accurate thought in the long run, rather than letting a small amount of convenience in the near term to outweigh that.
Reductively, the long term is nothing more than a collection of near terms. What remains a constant near term burden over the long term becomes a long-term burden.
I remain of the position that constantly adding caveats and provisos to language regardless of where the focus of discourse at a given moment happens to be is a fundamental error in communication. Since we can’t seem to agree on this topic, I have to wonder what postulates we aren’t sharing in common.
(my ex-primary of 10 years) has an exceedingly poor capability of grasping mathematics and probabilities. This was one of the reasons she and I didn’t make it past that 10 year mark.
Not judging but… this is a very novel reason for ending a 10-year relationship.
A statement like “Women want {thing}” leaves it unclear what the map is even supposed to be, barring clear context cues. This can lead to either fake disagreements or fake agreements.
Fake disagreements (“You said that Republicans are against gun control, but I know some who aren’t!”) are not too dangerous, I think. X makes the generalization, Y points out the exception, X says that it was a broad generalization, Y asks for more clarity in the future, X says Y was not being sufficiently charitable, and so on. Annoying to watch, but not likely to generate bad ideas.
Fake agreements can lead to deeper confusion. If X seriously believes that 99% of women have some property, and Y believes that only 80% of women have some property, then they may both agree with the generalization even if they have completely different ideas about what a charitable reading would be!
It costs next to nothing to say “With very few exceptions, women...”, “A strong majority of women....” or “Most women....” The three statements mean different things, and establishing the meaning does not make communication next-to-impossible; it makes communication clearer. This isn’t about charity, but clarity.
I in another subthread referenced the “Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality” ‘fanfic’ written by Eliezer, when he mentioned how many fewer digits of Pi rational!Harry knew as compared to rational!Hermione.
The point is that I’m concerned not with charity nor with clarity, but rather with sufficiency to the current medium. Each of those little “costs next to nothing” statements actually do have a cost, one that isn’t necessarily clear initially.
Are you familiar at all with how errors propagate in measurements? Each time you introduce new provisos, those statements affect the “informational value” of each dependent statement in its nest. This creates an analogous situation to the concept of significant digits in discourse.
For a topic like lukeprog’s, in other words, the difference between 99% and 80% of women is below the threshold of significance. Eliminating it altogether (until such time as it becomes significant) is an important and valuable practice in communication.
Failure to effectively exercise that practice will result in needless ‘clarifications’ distracting from the intended message, hampering dialogs with unnecessary cognitive burden resultant from additional nesting of “informational quanta.” In other words; if you add too many provisos to a statement, an otherwise meaningful and useful one will become trivially useless. An example of this in action can be found in another subthread of this conversation where someone stated he felt that there is a ‘trend among frequent LessWrongers to over-generalize”. This has informational meaning. He later added a ‘clarification’ that he hadn’t intended the statement as an indication of population size, which totally reversed the informational value of his statement from an interesting one to a statement so utterly trivial that it is effectively without meaning or usefulness.
Not adding those statements also has a cost.
Honestly, you don’t know how many potential rationalists may find a post seemingly making unchallenged sweeping generalizations about women, and decide that these so-called rationalists are just a group of bigoted idiots that are less rational than your average person-in-the-street.
It’s okay for someone to to say that pi is “3.14” if the other person knows that you know in reality it has more digits than that, and you’re just being sufficient for your purposes. In short if there’s actual transparency, not a double illusion of such.
But if they don’t know that, if every post of yours may be perceived as an indication of complete positions (not hasty approximations thereof), it costs less to do things like say “most women” instead of “women” (or add a general disclaimer at the beginning) rather than not do it.
This is trivially true. What does adding them add to a conversation to which they are not relevant or significant?
This is uncontestably true. But the opposite is also true; you don’t know how many potential rationalists may find a post filled with provisos and details and, upon discovering a massive gulf of an inferential gap, give up on even attempting to understand.
Certainly.
This is a gross misrepresentation of my statements, to the point of being nothing remotely like what I advocate. I have repeatedly advocated not the elimination of precision but the application of only the relevant degree of precision to the nature of the discourse at hand.
My point is not restricted to ‴”most women” instead of “women”‴. It is a generalized principle which happens to apply here. For any given conversation there are thousands of such details we must choose to parse for relevance to a conversation. Demanding unerring accuracy beyond relevance is simply damaging to dialogue.
The cost of omitting them isn’t clear initially, either.
I was generally taught to carry significant figures further than strictly necessary to avoid introducing rounding errors. If my final answer would have 3 significant digits, using a few buffer digits seemed wise. They’re cheap.
Propagation of uncertainty is not a reason to drop qualifiers. It’s a reason to use them. When reading an argument based on a generalization, I want to know the exceptions BEFORE the argument begins, not afterwards. That way, I can have a sense of how the uncertainties in each step affect the final conclusion.
If I want an answer to three significant figures, I do not begin my reasoning by rounding to two sigfigs, then trying to add in the last sigfig later.
If one person thinks that an argument depends on an assumption that fails in 1 in 100 cases, and someone else thinks the assumption fails in 1 in 5 cases, and they don’t even know that they disagree, and pointing out this disagreement is regarded as some kind of map-territory error, they will have trouble even noticing when the disagreement has become significant.
This tends to happen to bad generalizations, yes. Once you consider all of the cases in which they are wrong, suddenly they seem to only be true in the trivial cases!
Good generalizations are still useful even after you have noted places where they are less likely to hold. Adding any number of true provisos will not make them trivial.
As for the cognitive load, why not state assumptions at the beginning of an essay where possible, rather than adding them to each individual statement? If the reader shares the assumptions, they’ll just nod and move on. If the reader does NOT share the assumptions, then relieving them of the cognitive burden of being aware of disagreement is not a service.
I just now caught this, and… this is, I believe, where we have our fundamental disconnect.
By restricting the dialogue to essays the overwhelming majority of the meaningfulness of what I’m trying to say is entirely eliminated: my statements have been aimed at discussing the heuristic of measuring the cognitive burden per “unit” of information when communicating. The fact is that in a pre-planned document of basically any type one can safely assume a vastly greater available “pool of cognition” in his audience than in, say, a one-off comment in response to it, a youtube video comment, or something said over beers on a Friday night with your drinking-buddies.
I am struck by the thought that this metaphorically very similar to how Newton’s classical mechanics equations manifest themselves from quantum mechanics after you introduce enough systems, or how the general relativity equations become effectively conventional at “non-relativistic” speeds: when you change the terms of the equations the apparent behaviors become significantly different. Just like how there’s no need to bother considering your own relativistic mass when deciding whether or not to go on a diet, the heuristic I’m trying to discuss is vanishingly irrelevant to anything that one should expect from a thought-out-in advance, unrestricted-in-length, document.
Upvoted for clear communication.
I’m sort of puzzled, though, as to how I could have possibly interpreted your statements as applying to anything but the post and the comments on it; I saw no context clues suggesting that you meant “in everyday conversation.” Did I miss these?
That said, if one of us had added just three or four words of proviso earlier, limiting our generalizations explicitly, we could have figured the disconnect out more quickly. I could have said that my generalizations apply best to essays and edited posts. You could have said that your generalizations apply best to situations where the added cost of qualifiers carries a higher burden.
Because we did not explicitly qualify our generalizations, but instead relied on context, we fell prey to a fake disagreement. However, any vindication I feel at seeing my point supported is nullified by the realization that I, personally, failed to apply the communication strategy that I was promoting.
Oops.
My language throughout was highly generalized. Consider my opening statement: “I am troubled by the vehemence by which people seem to reject the notion of using the language of the second-order simulacrum—especially in communities that should be intimately aware of the concept that the map is not the territory.”
And then also consider the fact that I used the term “discourse”.
I didn’t mean “everyday communication” specifically—it simply is the venue where such a heuristic is most overtly valuable and noticeable. I did not qualify my generalizations because there were no qualifications to make: I was meaning the general sense.
Quite frankly, I did. That would be a modifying element to the “threshold of significance”. (I.e.; “Is the cost of adding item X to this conversation greater than the value item X provides to the depth or breadth of information I am attempting to convey? If yes, do not add it. If no, do.”) Because I was discussing so highly generalized a principle / heuristic, the fact that situations where added cost of qualifiers cost a higher burden is simply an inexorable conclusion from the assertion.
This seems like a context in which that shouldn’t be expected to save you from unwarranted criticism and being misunderstood at all. ;-)
Well, it’s tough: When I mean to be general and I use generalized terminology, should I not have the expectation of having communicated that my case is generalized?
For a moderately loose definition of ‘thought out in advance’, this describes most text-based, internet-based communication, and certainly the types of communication that can happen on LW.
I disagree with the usage of the term “moderately” here. I do not find it applicable. How many hours do you spend on each comment you make?
I don’t see how your question is relevant to the topic at hand. I usually spend less than 15 minutes writing any given comment—most of mine are relatively short—but that’s not counting time spent thinking about a topic and figuring out if I have something to say about it at all, which varies wildly and has been known to last days in some cases. But even in instances where I come up with a response near-instantly, it’s generally because I’ve previously spent time thinking about the particular issue, and as a result have a high-quality cached response available, which certainly seems to fit the criteria for ‘thought out in advance’!
Given that your personal commenting history on this site is extremely limited comparatively speaking I can’t really say that I disagree with you directly on this.
But we weren’t talking about just you personally, we were talking about “most text-based, internet-based communication”. And you seem to be an exception, not a rule, when it comes to the normal dialogue/discourse I see in the commenting threads of LW. And LW itself is by far vastly the exception to the rule when it comes to dealing with statements made as a result from pre-formed thoughts.
That being said—I would hope we can both agree that the notion that one can prepare for all possible conversations in advance regardless of topic is simply ludicrous without something resembling the heuristics I am trying to put a spotlight on.
o.O
If you’re going to change the subject, at least don’t try to act like I’m doing something wrong when I politely go along with the subject change, okay?
Most text-based, internet-based communication has very little in the way of time pressure, and LessWrong specifically has a norm of allowing or even encouraging comments on older posts and comments, allowing for arbitrary levels of pre-thinking. Length restrictions are slightly more common on the internet at large, but still not the norm, and not present here. This, in the context of your original comment—plus the implication that since it is possible to do those things, any case where someone doesn’t is a matter of personal choice or (problematic, in my opinion) group norms—was the entirety of my original point.
I do agree that the idea of having cached responses to all conversational possibilities is ridiculous. I wasn’t proposing that that is a thing that people should particularly try to do. My point, insofar as I had a point and wasn’t just answering your question on the assumption that you had some use for the information, was that that is one of the tactics that I’ve found to work, the other main one being to actually take the time to think my responses through, even if that takes a while.
I am not at all sure what you’re trying to communicate, here. One possible way of parsing it suggests that you might think that since LW is already well above average in terms of good communication, making it better shouldn’t be a priority, which I disagree with. I’d strongly prefer a clarification of your actual intent to a discussion of that idea if it wasn’t what you were trying to communicate, though.
I was using an example to demonstrate the intended meaning (which apparently was not a well-aimed one given the fact that you are statistically aberrant). I was not changing the topic.
If I cared about time pressure as opposed to cognitive burden -- that is, available attention span—I would have indicated so. I don’t, so this isn’t relevant.
Even so, my point remains easily demonstrated by a perusal of the majority of comments, which are typically made in a “conversational” rather than “ex post facto” mode. (We, right now, are in that conversational mode.)
A) that wasn’t my original comment.
B) Your counter-point as I understand it still remains invalid, to be quite honest, because you’re—I cannot help but feel intentionally at this point—refusing to recognize the fact that you’re using statistical outliers instead of norms to support your claims against what I have already stated explicitly was a heuristic.
No, that is not a valid interpretation of my statement. You leave out the context provided by antecedent statement of mine (same comment) that necessarily influences the meaning: “Given that your personal commenting history on this site is extremely limited comparatively speaking I can’t really say that I disagree with you directly on this.” It is clear that how I said you were different was in that you have a limited commenting history.
I seem to have some strong difficulties in communicating with you any of my intended meanings at pretty much any point. I’m not at all certain why this is the case, as I do not normally have this difficulty with an audience. I have noted that you have left out contextually significantly relevant points/items in coming to your interpretations of my words as I have written them.
I do not know why that is happening, but it makes me feel that this conversation is never going to go anywhere but frustrate me. So no, you won’t get that clarification; but not because I wouldn’t like to give it.
Which is why I also discussed error propagation, which compounds.
I can only say that you are reading the metaphor too literally given the examples I’ve given thus far.
Of course!!! This isn’t applicable to dialogue, however, as it has the opposite problem: the degree of cognitive burden to retain the informational value of a statement increases with the increased complexity. There is a limit on how much of this can be done in a given conversation.
Increasing complexity of statements to increase their accuracy can cause the ability to comprehend a statement to be reduced.
This statement carries a specific assumption of depth of dialogue which may or may not be valid.
And yet, we still say that p(Christianity is correct) is epsilon, rather than zero—and this seems to cause few-to-no problems, even.
Seems is the key here. Any instance where you would use that sort of language, the relevant threshold of significance was such that it was a proper statement to make.
Consider a context where you were making that statement to a Jehovah’s Witness trying to hand you a flyer as your 10 o’clock bus was stopping in front of you. You could still make the statement, but if you were being honest with yourself you’d realize that your words would be gibberish, whereas “I’m not Christian” would be contextually appropriate: you would convey a statement with non-zero informational value. “The probability that ‘Christianity is correct’ is epsilon” on the other hand would not in such a context, quite likely, actually convey any meaning to the audience.
It seems that I’ve failed to make my point.
It is, as far as I can tell, safe to assume that everyone who reads LW understands enough about probabilities that saying ‘zero’ would communicate exactly the same concept regarding the probability at hand as saying ‘epsilon’, if we had a norm of allowing the former. The reason for doing the latter is about signaling, in much the same way that saying ‘most women’ instead of just ‘women’ is about signaling. In both cases, the point of the signal is to encourage accurate thought in the long run, rather than letting a small amount of convenience in the near term to outweigh that.
Either you have or I have. As I believe I understand entirely what your position here is, I can’t help but wonder.
Here’s the thing: nothing I’ve been saying was tailored at any point to be specific to Less Wrong in particular.
It’s also not a safe assumption, by the way, for the simple fact there is at least one person who recommends this community to every budding (or potential) rationalist he encounters—me. At least one of those persons (my ex-primary of 10 years) has an exceedingly poor capability of grasping mathematics and probabilities. This was one of the reasons she and I didn’t make it past that 10 year mark.
See, I suspect there might be a political element to this as well. I for one would strongly prefer that the second-order simulacrum be the standard assumption rather than requiring continued increased cognitive burden in discourse. It is true that we think in language; and therefore the language we use shapes our thoughts—but language is a memeplex of symbolic representations of semantical content/value. If we adjust the symbol, we adjust the thought. But this is now becoming an altogether different topic of conversation.
Reductively, the long term is nothing more than a collection of near terms. What remains a constant near term burden over the long term becomes a long-term burden.
I remain of the position that constantly adding caveats and provisos to language regardless of where the focus of discourse at a given moment happens to be is a fundamental error in communication. Since we can’t seem to agree on this topic, I have to wonder what postulates we aren’t sharing in common.
Not judging but… this is a very novel reason for ending a 10-year relationship.
“One of” is a key term here. I also didn’t provide any context for weighting of said reasons.
I didn’t make those clarifications because it really wasn’t relevant to the information I was trying to convey at the time. ;-)
Also, a factor like that may have been a significant cause of other more proximate issues.
Okay, I’ll admit it—that just got a grin and a chuckle out of me. Well done.
bows