As for the cognitive load, why not state assumptions at the beginning of an essay where possible,
I just now caught this, and… this is, I believe, where we have our fundamental disconnect.
By restricting the dialogue to essays the overwhelming majority of the meaningfulness of what I’m trying to say is entirely eliminated: my statements have been aimed at discussing the heuristic of measuring the cognitive burden per “unit” of information when communicating. The fact is that in a pre-planned document of basically any type one can safely assume a vastly greater available “pool of cognition” in his audience than in, say, a one-off comment in response to it, a youtube video comment, or something said over beers on a Friday night with your drinking-buddies.
I am struck by the thought that this metaphorically very similar to how Newton’s classical mechanics equations manifest themselves from quantum mechanics after you introduce enough systems, or how the general relativity equations become effectively conventional at “non-relativistic” speeds: when you change the terms of the equations the apparent behaviors become significantly different. Just like how there’s no need to bother considering your own relativistic mass when deciding whether or not to go on a diet, the heuristic I’m trying to discuss is vanishingly irrelevant to anything that one should expect from a thought-out-in advance, unrestricted-in-length, document.
I’m sort of puzzled, though, as to how I could have possibly interpreted your statements as applying to anything but the post and the comments on it; I saw no context clues suggesting that you meant “in everyday conversation.” Did I miss these?
That said, if one of us had added just three or four words of proviso earlier, limiting our generalizations explicitly, we could have figured the disconnect out more quickly. I could have said that my generalizations apply best to essays and edited posts. You could have said that your generalizations apply best to situations where the added cost of qualifiers carries a higher burden.
Because we did not explicitly qualify our generalizations, but instead relied on context, we fell prey to a fake disagreement. However, any vindication I feel at seeing my point supported is nullified by the realization that I, personally, failed to apply the communication strategy that I was promoting.
I saw no context clues suggesting that you meant “in everyday conversation.” Did I miss these?
My language throughout was highly generalized. Consider my opening statement: “I am troubled by the vehemence by which people seem to reject the notion of using the language of the second-order simulacrum—especially in communities that should be intimately aware of the concept that the map is not the territory.”
And then also consider the fact that I used the term “discourse”.
I didn’t mean “everyday communication” specifically—it simply is the venue where such a heuristic is most overtly valuable and noticeable. I did not qualify my generalizations because there were no qualifications to make: I was meaning the general sense.
You could have said that your generalizations apply best to situations where the added cost of qualifiers carries a higher burden.
Quite frankly, I did. That would be a modifying element to the “threshold of significance”. (I.e.; “Is the cost of adding item X to this conversation greater than the value item X provides to the depth or breadth of information I am attempting to convey? If yes, do not add it. If no, do.”) Because I was discussing so highly generalized a principle / heuristic, the fact that situations where added cost of qualifiers cost a higher burden is simply an inexorable conclusion from the assertion.
Well, it’s tough: When I mean to be general and I use generalized terminology, should I not have the expectation of having communicated that my case is generalized?
a thought-out-in advance, unrestricted-in-length, document.
For a moderately loose definition of ‘thought out in advance’, this describes most text-based, internet-based communication, and certainly the types of communication that can happen on LW.
I don’t see how your question is relevant to the topic at hand. I usually spend less than 15 minutes writing any given comment—most of mine are relatively short—but that’s not counting time spent thinking about a topic and figuring out if I have something to say about it at all, which varies wildly and has been known to last days in some cases. But even in instances where I come up with a response near-instantly, it’s generally because I’ve previously spent time thinking about the particular issue, and as a result have a high-quality cached response available, which certainly seems to fit the criteria for ‘thought out in advance’!
But even in instances where I come up with a response near-instantly, it’s generally because I’ve previously spent time thinking about the particular issue, and as a result have a high-quality cached response available,
Given that your personal commenting history on this site is extremely limited comparatively speaking I can’t really say that I disagree with you directly on this.
But we weren’t talking about just you personally, we were talking about “most text-based, internet-based communication”. And you seem to be an exception, not a rule, when it comes to the normal dialogue/discourse I see in the commenting threads of LW. And LW itself is by far vastly the exception to the rule when it comes to dealing with statements made as a result from pre-formed thoughts.
That being said—I would hope we can both agree that the notion that one can prepare for all possible conversations in advance regardless of topic is simply ludicrous without something resembling the heuristics I am trying to put a spotlight on.
How many hours do you [emphasis yours] spend on each comment you make?
If you’re going to change the subject, at least don’t try to act like I’m doing something wrong when I politely go along with the subject change, okay?
we were talking about “most text-based, internet-based communication”.
Most text-based, internet-based communication has very little in the way of time pressure, and LessWrong specifically has a norm of allowing or even encouraging comments on older posts and comments, allowing for arbitrary levels of pre-thinking. Length restrictions are slightly more common on the internet at large, but still not the norm, and not present here. This, in the context of your original comment—plus the implication that since it is possible to do those things, any case where someone doesn’t is a matter of personal choice or (problematic, in my opinion) group norms—was the entirety of my original point.
I do agree that the idea of having cached responses to all conversational possibilities is ridiculous. I wasn’t proposing that that is a thing that people should particularly try to do. My point, insofar as I had a point and wasn’t just answering your question on the assumption that you had some use for the information, was that that is one of the tactics that I’ve found to work, the other main one being to actually take the time to think my responses through, even if that takes a while.
And you seem to be an exception, not a rule, when it comes to the normal dialogue/discourse I see in the commenting threads of LW. And LW itself is by far vastly the exception to the rule when it comes to dealing with statements made as a result from pre-formed thoughts.
I am not at all sure what you’re trying to communicate, here. One possible way of parsing it suggests that you might think that since LW is already well above average in terms of good communication, making it better shouldn’t be a priority, which I disagree with. I’d strongly prefer a clarification of your actual intent to a discussion of that idea if it wasn’t what you were trying to communicate, though.
How many hours do you [emphasis yours] spend on each comment you make?
If you’re going to change the subject, at least don’t try to act like I’m doing something wrong when I politely go along with the subject change, okay?
I was using an example to demonstrate the intended meaning (which apparently was not a well-aimed one given the fact that you are statistically aberrant). I was not changing the topic.
Most text-based, internet-based communication has very little in the way of time pressure,
If I cared about time pressure as opposed to cognitive burden -- that is, available attention span—I would have indicated so. I don’t, so this isn’t relevant.
and LessWrong specifically has a norm of allowing or even encouraging comments on older posts and comments, allowing for arbitrary levels of pre-thinking.
Even so, my point remains easily demonstrated by a perusal of the majority of comments, which are typically made in a “conversational” rather than “ex post facto” mode. (We, right now, are in that conversational mode.)
This, in the context of your original comment—plus the implication that since it is possible to do those things, so any cases where someone doesn’t is a matter of personal choice or (problematic, in my opinion) group norms—was the entirety of my original point.
A) that wasn’t my original comment.
B) Your counter-point as I understand it still remains invalid, to be quite honest, because you’re—I cannot help but feel intentionally at this point—refusing to recognize the fact that you’re using statistical outliers instead of norms to support your claims against what I have already stated explicitly was a heuristic.
And you seem to be an exception, not a rule, when it comes to the normal dialogue/discourse I see in the commenting threads of LW. And LW itself is by far vastly the exception to the rule when it comes to dealing with statements made as a result from pre-formed thoughts.
I am not at all sure what you’re trying to communicate, here. One possible way of parsing it suggests that you might think that since LW is already well above average in terms of good communication, making it better shouldn’t be a priority,
No, that is not a valid interpretation of my statement. You leave out the context provided by antecedent statement of mine (same comment) that necessarily influences the meaning: “Given that your personal commenting history on this site is extremely limited comparatively speaking I can’t really say that I disagree with you directly on this.” It is clear that how I said you were different was in that you have a limited commenting history.
I’d strongly prefer a clarification of your actual intent to a discussion of that idea if it wasn’t what you were trying to communicate, though.
I seem to have some strong difficulties in communicating with you any of my intended meanings at pretty much any point. I’m not at all certain why this is the case, as I do not normally have this difficulty with an audience. I have noted that you have left out contextually significantly relevant points/items in coming to your interpretations of my words as I have written them.
I do not know why that is happening, but it makes me feel that this conversation is never going to go anywhere but frustrate me. So no, you won’t get that clarification; but not because I wouldn’t like to give it.
I just now caught this, and… this is, I believe, where we have our fundamental disconnect.
By restricting the dialogue to essays the overwhelming majority of the meaningfulness of what I’m trying to say is entirely eliminated: my statements have been aimed at discussing the heuristic of measuring the cognitive burden per “unit” of information when communicating. The fact is that in a pre-planned document of basically any type one can safely assume a vastly greater available “pool of cognition” in his audience than in, say, a one-off comment in response to it, a youtube video comment, or something said over beers on a Friday night with your drinking-buddies.
I am struck by the thought that this metaphorically very similar to how Newton’s classical mechanics equations manifest themselves from quantum mechanics after you introduce enough systems, or how the general relativity equations become effectively conventional at “non-relativistic” speeds: when you change the terms of the equations the apparent behaviors become significantly different. Just like how there’s no need to bother considering your own relativistic mass when deciding whether or not to go on a diet, the heuristic I’m trying to discuss is vanishingly irrelevant to anything that one should expect from a thought-out-in advance, unrestricted-in-length, document.
Upvoted for clear communication.
I’m sort of puzzled, though, as to how I could have possibly interpreted your statements as applying to anything but the post and the comments on it; I saw no context clues suggesting that you meant “in everyday conversation.” Did I miss these?
That said, if one of us had added just three or four words of proviso earlier, limiting our generalizations explicitly, we could have figured the disconnect out more quickly. I could have said that my generalizations apply best to essays and edited posts. You could have said that your generalizations apply best to situations where the added cost of qualifiers carries a higher burden.
Because we did not explicitly qualify our generalizations, but instead relied on context, we fell prey to a fake disagreement. However, any vindication I feel at seeing my point supported is nullified by the realization that I, personally, failed to apply the communication strategy that I was promoting.
Oops.
My language throughout was highly generalized. Consider my opening statement: “I am troubled by the vehemence by which people seem to reject the notion of using the language of the second-order simulacrum—especially in communities that should be intimately aware of the concept that the map is not the territory.”
And then also consider the fact that I used the term “discourse”.
I didn’t mean “everyday communication” specifically—it simply is the venue where such a heuristic is most overtly valuable and noticeable. I did not qualify my generalizations because there were no qualifications to make: I was meaning the general sense.
Quite frankly, I did. That would be a modifying element to the “threshold of significance”. (I.e.; “Is the cost of adding item X to this conversation greater than the value item X provides to the depth or breadth of information I am attempting to convey? If yes, do not add it. If no, do.”) Because I was discussing so highly generalized a principle / heuristic, the fact that situations where added cost of qualifiers cost a higher burden is simply an inexorable conclusion from the assertion.
This seems like a context in which that shouldn’t be expected to save you from unwarranted criticism and being misunderstood at all. ;-)
Well, it’s tough: When I mean to be general and I use generalized terminology, should I not have the expectation of having communicated that my case is generalized?
For a moderately loose definition of ‘thought out in advance’, this describes most text-based, internet-based communication, and certainly the types of communication that can happen on LW.
I disagree with the usage of the term “moderately” here. I do not find it applicable. How many hours do you spend on each comment you make?
I don’t see how your question is relevant to the topic at hand. I usually spend less than 15 minutes writing any given comment—most of mine are relatively short—but that’s not counting time spent thinking about a topic and figuring out if I have something to say about it at all, which varies wildly and has been known to last days in some cases. But even in instances where I come up with a response near-instantly, it’s generally because I’ve previously spent time thinking about the particular issue, and as a result have a high-quality cached response available, which certainly seems to fit the criteria for ‘thought out in advance’!
Given that your personal commenting history on this site is extremely limited comparatively speaking I can’t really say that I disagree with you directly on this.
But we weren’t talking about just you personally, we were talking about “most text-based, internet-based communication”. And you seem to be an exception, not a rule, when it comes to the normal dialogue/discourse I see in the commenting threads of LW. And LW itself is by far vastly the exception to the rule when it comes to dealing with statements made as a result from pre-formed thoughts.
That being said—I would hope we can both agree that the notion that one can prepare for all possible conversations in advance regardless of topic is simply ludicrous without something resembling the heuristics I am trying to put a spotlight on.
o.O
If you’re going to change the subject, at least don’t try to act like I’m doing something wrong when I politely go along with the subject change, okay?
Most text-based, internet-based communication has very little in the way of time pressure, and LessWrong specifically has a norm of allowing or even encouraging comments on older posts and comments, allowing for arbitrary levels of pre-thinking. Length restrictions are slightly more common on the internet at large, but still not the norm, and not present here. This, in the context of your original comment—plus the implication that since it is possible to do those things, any case where someone doesn’t is a matter of personal choice or (problematic, in my opinion) group norms—was the entirety of my original point.
I do agree that the idea of having cached responses to all conversational possibilities is ridiculous. I wasn’t proposing that that is a thing that people should particularly try to do. My point, insofar as I had a point and wasn’t just answering your question on the assumption that you had some use for the information, was that that is one of the tactics that I’ve found to work, the other main one being to actually take the time to think my responses through, even if that takes a while.
I am not at all sure what you’re trying to communicate, here. One possible way of parsing it suggests that you might think that since LW is already well above average in terms of good communication, making it better shouldn’t be a priority, which I disagree with. I’d strongly prefer a clarification of your actual intent to a discussion of that idea if it wasn’t what you were trying to communicate, though.
I was using an example to demonstrate the intended meaning (which apparently was not a well-aimed one given the fact that you are statistically aberrant). I was not changing the topic.
If I cared about time pressure as opposed to cognitive burden -- that is, available attention span—I would have indicated so. I don’t, so this isn’t relevant.
Even so, my point remains easily demonstrated by a perusal of the majority of comments, which are typically made in a “conversational” rather than “ex post facto” mode. (We, right now, are in that conversational mode.)
A) that wasn’t my original comment.
B) Your counter-point as I understand it still remains invalid, to be quite honest, because you’re—I cannot help but feel intentionally at this point—refusing to recognize the fact that you’re using statistical outliers instead of norms to support your claims against what I have already stated explicitly was a heuristic.
No, that is not a valid interpretation of my statement. You leave out the context provided by antecedent statement of mine (same comment) that necessarily influences the meaning: “Given that your personal commenting history on this site is extremely limited comparatively speaking I can’t really say that I disagree with you directly on this.” It is clear that how I said you were different was in that you have a limited commenting history.
I seem to have some strong difficulties in communicating with you any of my intended meanings at pretty much any point. I’m not at all certain why this is the case, as I do not normally have this difficulty with an audience. I have noted that you have left out contextually significantly relevant points/items in coming to your interpretations of my words as I have written them.
I do not know why that is happening, but it makes me feel that this conversation is never going to go anywhere but frustrate me. So no, you won’t get that clarification; but not because I wouldn’t like to give it.