Well it’s almost definitional. If evolutionary selection pressures were extreme enough to actually make lukeprog that way, then all men are that way. If evolution did it to him, then it did it to everyone. Evolution doesn’t discriminate. What’s more likely is that evolution didn’t actually make him that way, but societal pressures did.
But that’s setting aside the fact that most people tend to wildly anthropomorphize evolution...
Well it’s almost definitional. If evolutionary selection pressures were extreme enough to actually make lukeprog that way, then all men are that way.
This does not follow. There are many species where different members have evolved different mating strategies. For a really neat example see this lizard. Males have evolved three different strategies that are in a rock-paper-scissors relationship to each other.
It seems clear though, that your example is the exception and not the rule. There is no reason that evolution would have made lukeprog different from other males, given that he was human.
Actually, variable mating strategies are darn common for animals. Sometimes they represent stable lifepaths with whole species populations grouped not just by sex, but by which members of a given sex use which strategy (cleaner wrasses come to mind); other species vary thejr strategies based on things like food availability, or in different parts of their geographical range, or in different sub-populations.
I can give lots of other species that have stable equilibria with multiple mating strategies. There’s also a fair number of game theory scenarios where the Nash equilibria involve similar mixed strategies. These aren’t that uncommon in nature. The lizard example is just one of the weirder examples. This is clearly way too common for it to be labeled as “almost definitional”.
Can you clarify what the harm is, in her thinking ‘just like a man’
Or what her thinking would actually be, if that is not what you’re suggesting?
And for the record, I killed that first relationship by telling my BF that I wasn’t sure I loved him anymore, but that I didn’t actually want to break up. Which was totally true, and had predictable results. I turned a normal healthy and cute math-classics major/computer science nerd into a clingy and demanding person, because I didn’t understand why I wasn’t happier with myself. He had no recourse to any pat generalizations, like ‘just like a woman’.
I would think that her thinking would be that if evolution made lukeprog not like me because of xyz, then it would make all men not like me because of that. I must not be a likeable person.
Well, I’m no expert on how women think, but there is no thought control.
This breakup story is so unusual in the amount of rational preparation for it, I’m sure that I would be able to see that most other men are not much like lukeprog, on that point if no other.
I am not sure there is any way to convince someone you do not want to date (at all / any longer) that they are likeable, except by proving it over time.
Most men are not like lukeprog on that point, certainly.
However, lukeprog was not asserting that most men were like him on that point. He was asserting that evolution had contributed for his not liking her for reasons X, Y, and Z. All people are closely enough related that if that were true, then there would be a good chance that evolution had done similarly for other men. So, to the degree that she believed him, the conclusion that it likely applied to other men would follow more strongly than without his assertion.
You make a good point, but I doubt she believed his assertion for long, if at all. Though it probably offended her.
I am trying to suggest that lukeprog’s assertions about why he didn’t feel like he liked her the right amount any more are totally irrelevant to her reaction. Their accuracy is, in fact, arguable.
Evolution, as it applies to men, suggests that just often enough, some of them will try to impregnate someone. Cross-cultural standards of physical beauty in women suggest who most men are most likely to try to approach. This is statistical. “Who wants to date ME” is personal, and there is no proof other than experience.
The fact that he didn’t feel like he liked her the right amount to date her anymore is the unarguable point, and there is no way of getting around that.
She sounds like a normal girl and probably had a normal amount of disappointment over the breakup, and maybe an above-average amount of resentment at the suggestion that she might not be as evolutionarily attractive as the next girl.
Luke will never be able to break up with any future girlfriends because it would require too many preliminaries before he could even start the sequence which would explain why they should break up.
And the more time he spends with more and more girlfriends the more he will learn about relationships and the harder it will be for him to break up with them. It’s pretty much an Unfriendly and Artificial Breakup Conversation FOOM.
Well it’s almost definitional. If evolutionary selection pressures were extreme enough to actually make lukeprog that way, then all men are that way. If evolution did it to him, then it did it to everyone. Evolution doesn’t discriminate. What’s more likely is that evolution didn’t actually make him that way, but societal pressures did.
But that’s setting aside the fact that most people tend to wildly anthropomorphize evolution...
I wouldn’t expect lukeprog to bring up evolution in that context unless he believed that most men were like him.
This does not follow. There are many species where different members have evolved different mating strategies. For a really neat example see this lizard. Males have evolved three different strategies that are in a rock-paper-scissors relationship to each other.
It seems clear though, that your example is the exception and not the rule. There is no reason that evolution would have made lukeprog different from other males, given that he was human.
Actually, variable mating strategies are darn common for animals. Sometimes they represent stable lifepaths with whole species populations grouped not just by sex, but by which members of a given sex use which strategy (cleaner wrasses come to mind); other species vary thejr strategies based on things like food availability, or in different parts of their geographical range, or in different sub-populations.
I can give lots of other species that have stable equilibria with multiple mating strategies. There’s also a fair number of game theory scenarios where the Nash equilibria involve similar mixed strategies. These aren’t that uncommon in nature. The lizard example is just one of the weirder examples. This is clearly way too common for it to be labeled as “almost definitional”.
Can you clarify what the harm is, in her thinking ‘just like a man’
Or what her thinking would actually be, if that is not what you’re suggesting?
And for the record, I killed that first relationship by telling my BF that I wasn’t sure I loved him anymore, but that I didn’t actually want to break up. Which was totally true, and had predictable results. I turned a normal healthy and cute math-classics major/computer science nerd into a clingy and demanding person, because I didn’t understand why I wasn’t happier with myself. He had no recourse to any pat generalizations, like ‘just like a woman’.
I would think that her thinking would be that if evolution made lukeprog not like me because of xyz, then it would make all men not like me because of that. I must not be a likeable person.
That would be bad.
Well, I’m no expert on how women think, but there is no thought control.
This breakup story is so unusual in the amount of rational preparation for it, I’m sure that I would be able to see that most other men are not much like lukeprog, on that point if no other.
I am not sure there is any way to convince someone you do not want to date (at all / any longer) that they are likeable, except by proving it over time.
Most men are not like lukeprog on that point, certainly.
However, lukeprog was not asserting that most men were like him on that point. He was asserting that evolution had contributed for his not liking her for reasons X, Y, and Z. All people are closely enough related that if that were true, then there would be a good chance that evolution had done similarly for other men. So, to the degree that she believed him, the conclusion that it likely applied to other men would follow more strongly than without his assertion.
You make a good point, but I doubt she believed his assertion for long, if at all. Though it probably offended her.
I am trying to suggest that lukeprog’s assertions about why he didn’t feel like he liked her the right amount any more are totally irrelevant to her reaction. Their accuracy is, in fact, arguable.
Evolution, as it applies to men, suggests that just often enough, some of them will try to impregnate someone. Cross-cultural standards of physical beauty in women suggest who most men are most likely to try to approach. This is statistical. “Who wants to date ME” is personal, and there is no proof other than experience.
The fact that he didn’t feel like he liked her the right amount to date her anymore is the unarguable point, and there is no way of getting around that.
She sounds like a normal girl and probably had a normal amount of disappointment over the breakup, and maybe an above-average amount of resentment at the suggestion that she might not be as evolutionarily attractive as the next girl.
He should have started with the mind projection fallacy.
Luke will never be able to break up with any future girlfriends because it would require too many preliminaries before he could even start the sequence which would explain why they should break up.
...says the only person who required more buildup to discuss metaethics than I did.
I have not tired of these jokes, but: actually, ‘breaking up’ rationalist-to-rationalist is pretty easy and painless in my (limited) experience.
And the more time he spends with more and more girlfriends the more he will learn about relationships and the harder it will be for him to break up with them. It’s pretty much an Unfriendly and Artificial Breakup Conversation FOOM.
Expecting short inferential distances then.