EDIT: I just noticed that the names of the person I have been debating were not all the same, and that some statements I attributed to Eugene_Nier are actually those of army1987; I hadn’t noticed because I noticed several layers of Eugene_Nier->VAuroch->Eugene_Nier->etc. I will leave these in unmodified for now because I don’t think the comment is valueless enough to retract it.
I’m going to note that I considered tapping out here, but I’m persisting a bit longer in the hope that you are still debating in good faith, though I am losing confidence in that belief. This is edging into mind-killer territory, so I’m also losing confidence in the correctness of my assessment.
That’s partially the state of society. If we looked say 50 years ago, how many “reported cases” of gender dysphoria would there be?
So do you have some reason to think there is a higher percentage of transgender people who report their issue than the percentage of people with BIID currently reported? Because with the drastic consequences to the life of the subject (see discussion), I would expect something like 60-90% of BIID to be reported, and would be extremely surprised if 90% or more were unreported, which removes any possibility of resolving the several-order-of-magnitude discrepancy.
Also, checking 50 years ago, more than 300 had been reported. One operation was carried out in Germany in, IIRC, the early 1930s; the research facility was closed by the Nazi party and all their (pioneering) research results into transgender psychology and biology destroyed for obvious ideological reasons.
And you presented even less evidence for your claim.
What evidence have you presented? I have given substantial description of what being trans feels like, taken as much as possible from direct conversation with trans people I know personally, some of it specifically gathered in response to points you raised. I have made clear distinctions between how you have described your experience (which matches my experience) and how trans people describe theirs. Short of commissioning a study, I have done everything possible here! You have provided personal anecdote and an unclear reference to a paper, poorly cited by someone with an obvious ideological axe to grind.
You also still haven’t justified your assertion that
there’s no question left to ask whether I actually am a man.
(which seems trivially false in a cultural context, where group labels are highly significant)
or addressed the distinction provided firsthand
It’s on a deeper level than what [Eugene_Nier] is saying about himself. Like he doesn’t like the things that come along in his mind about being a man. [Auroch’s Trans Friend] didn’t like being a woman. It had nothing to do with what [Friend] was or wasn’t expected to do. It was about what [he] was told [he] was.
Please back up some of these points. (Or else tap out yourself. I suspect similar factors are present on your side as well.)
So do you have some reason to think there is a higher percentage of transgender people who report their issue than the percentage of people with BIID currently reported?
Yes, there is a large “transgender” movement encouraging people to come out of the closet (or to convince themselves that they’re “gender-identity” doesn’t match their bodies). There is not a similar movement for BIID.
What evidence have you presented? I have given substantial description of what being trans feels like, taken as much as possible from direct conversation with trans people I know personally, some of it specifically gathered in response to points you raised.
Note of the evidence I’ve seen you present actually contradicts my claims. What you’re trying to do appears to be the analog of trying to convince someone that god exists by describing the religious experiences of some of your friends.
there’s no question left to ask whether I actually am a man.
(which seems trivially false in a cultural context, where group labels are highly significant)
So, would you describe the question you think is left.
What you’re trying to do appears to be the analog of trying to convince someone that god exists by describing the religious experiences of some of your friends.
All I need is an existence proof. Almost all trans people are aware of feelings of being trans well before they’ve heard the term, and there are still many of them. Therefore, trans people exist.
there’s no question left to ask whether I actually am a man.
(which seems trivially false in a cultural context, where group labels are highly significant)
So, would you describe the question you think is left.
The obvious unremoveable question, in languages with gendered grammar, is “Which gender should I use to refer to you?” Also, the ever-present bathroom question. Should they be allowed in single-gender spaces/colleges/clubs/etc., and which ones? “Should” in these examples is used because referring to someone as the incorrect gender causes harm; frequently panic attacks, exacerbated depression, and so on.
I’m going to have to tap out now, though. I’m now finding it hard to treat you as not a troll, which means I am being irrational and should stop.
All I need is an existence proof. Almost all trans people are aware of feelings of being trans well before they’ve heard the term, and there are still many of them. Therefore, trans people exist.
No one is deputing that trans people, in the sense of people who claim to be “really the opposite gender”, exist. The questions being discussed are:
1) whether someone wondering whether “they’re trans” is asking a meaningful question, and
2) the related question of what causes people to claim to be “really the opposite gender”.
Let’s consider how you’re explanation applies to the questions above.
The obvious unremoveable question, in languages with gendered grammar, is “Which gender should I use to refer to you?”
This says nothing about question (2). Applying it to question (1) someone asking “am I trans?” becomes someone asking “which pronoun do I want to be referred to by?” Since the pronoun issue appears to be an epiphenomenon of some other issue, this isn’t helpful.
Also, the ever-present bathroom question. Should they be allowed in single-gender spaces/colleges/clubs/etc., and which ones?
This has the same problem as the pronoun definition above, but with the added complication that one needs to consider why the bathrooms/spaces/etc. in question are single-gender. The answer is generally because the attendees feel more comfortable doing whatever they do there if members of the other gender aren’t present. Thus we need to take into account their comfort and not just that of the trans person when doing utility calculations.
EDIT: I just noticed that the names of the person I have been debating were not all the same, and that some statements I attributed to Eugene_Nier are actually those of army1987; I hadn’t noticed because I noticed several layers of Eugene_Nier->VAuroch->Eugene_Nier->etc. I will leave these in unmodified for now because I don’t think the comment is valueless enough to retract it.
I’m going to note that I considered tapping out here, but I’m persisting a bit longer in the hope that you are still debating in good faith, though I am losing confidence in that belief. This is edging into mind-killer territory, so I’m also losing confidence in the correctness of my assessment.
So do you have some reason to think there is a higher percentage of transgender people who report their issue than the percentage of people with BIID currently reported? Because with the drastic consequences to the life of the subject (see discussion), I would expect something like 60-90% of BIID to be reported, and would be extremely surprised if 90% or more were unreported, which removes any possibility of resolving the several-order-of-magnitude discrepancy.
Also, checking 50 years ago, more than 300 had been reported. One operation was carried out in Germany in, IIRC, the early 1930s; the research facility was closed by the Nazi party and all their (pioneering) research results into transgender psychology and biology destroyed for obvious ideological reasons.
What evidence have you presented? I have given substantial description of what being trans feels like, taken as much as possible from direct conversation with trans people I know personally, some of it specifically gathered in response to points you raised. I have made clear distinctions between how you have described your experience (which matches my experience) and how trans people describe theirs. Short of commissioning a study, I have done everything possible here! You have provided personal anecdote and an unclear reference to a paper, poorly cited by someone with an obvious ideological axe to grind.
You also still haven’t justified your assertion that
(which seems trivially false in a cultural context, where group labels are highly significant)
or addressed the distinction provided firsthand
Please back up some of these points. (Or else tap out yourself. I suspect similar factors are present on your side as well.)
Yes, there is a large “transgender” movement encouraging people to come out of the closet (or to convince themselves that they’re “gender-identity” doesn’t match their bodies). There is not a similar movement for BIID.
Note of the evidence I’ve seen you present actually contradicts my claims. What you’re trying to do appears to be the analog of trying to convince someone that god exists by describing the religious experiences of some of your friends.
So, would you describe the question you think is left.
All I need is an existence proof. Almost all trans people are aware of feelings of being trans well before they’ve heard the term, and there are still many of them. Therefore, trans people exist.
The obvious unremoveable question, in languages with gendered grammar, is “Which gender should I use to refer to you?” Also, the ever-present bathroom question. Should they be allowed in single-gender spaces/colleges/clubs/etc., and which ones? “Should” in these examples is used because referring to someone as the incorrect gender causes harm; frequently panic attacks, exacerbated depression, and so on.
I’m going to have to tap out now, though. I’m now finding it hard to treat you as not a troll, which means I am being irrational and should stop.
No one is deputing that trans people, in the sense of people who claim to be “really the opposite gender”, exist. The questions being discussed are:
1) whether someone wondering whether “they’re trans” is asking a meaningful question, and
2) the related question of what causes people to claim to be “really the opposite gender”.
Let’s consider how you’re explanation applies to the questions above.
This says nothing about question (2). Applying it to question (1) someone asking “am I trans?” becomes someone asking “which pronoun do I want to be referred to by?” Since the pronoun issue appears to be an epiphenomenon of some other issue, this isn’t helpful.
This has the same problem as the pronoun definition above, but with the added complication that one needs to consider why the bathrooms/spaces/etc. in question are single-gender. The answer is generally because the attendees feel more comfortable doing whatever they do there if members of the other gender aren’t present. Thus we need to take into account their comfort and not just that of the trans person when doing utility calculations.