What if you want to say that something is good but that there is no beneficiary and no standard? A language should not exclude certain possibilities just because the person that invented the language thinks that they cannot happen in reality.
If you don’t want to specify a beneficiary or standard, you can just leave those blanks empty, and people often do so, allowing context to fill in the necessary information. If a listener needs more detail they can always ask for it. lojban questions happen to take the form of requests to fill in a specific blank.
I gather that back in the 1990s there was quite the argument regarding what place structure certain words “should” have. In the end, the Logical Language Group decided on the current definitions and declared that they were making no metaphysical claims, it’s just that words have to be defined one way or another. Too, there are grammatical ways to add, explicitly delete, or rearrange places in any word if the author should feel the need.
I gather that back in the 1990s there was quite the argument regarding what place structure certain words “should” have. [...] n the end, the Logical Language Group decided on the current definitions and declared that they were making no metaphysical claims, it’s just that words have to be defined one way or another.
The result is that the place system is extremely horrible and hard to use because every word has it’s own rules about it’s places.
I’ve not found it to be so, but you are welcome to your own evaluation, friend. :)
In general, x1 tends to be analogous to an English subject and x2 like an English object for gismu where that applies. At any rate, I don’t think of memorizing even 1300 completely random place structures as any great mental burden compared to, for example, conjugating verbs in English, Spanish or French; or declining nouns in Latin.
In general, x1 tends to be analogous to an English subject and x2 like an English object for gismu where that applies.
Yes, if you only use the x1 and x2 of a gismu that’s true. You are also not finished by memorizing 1300 place structures because Lujvo also have places and you can’t be sure which places of the words on which the Lujvo is build get actually used for that purpose.
Fair enough, but still far less troublesome than the structure of any natural language I’ve ever studied, IMO, where each of many thousands of words must be memorized separately for mastery. At least there are consistent rules, even if they are currently incomplete or inadequate in some places. The language is still very young, after all. Even the documentation admits that lujvo are a bit problematic. Room for growth is not necessarily a bad thing.
This is a start toward what may be a better way of communicating (than many natural languages by standard of understandability ;). If nothing else, Lojban can show us some places where our own languages are… less than rigorous in promoting good mental habits. Our languages, cultures, and customs leave us with plenty of blind spots and I am happy for any tool that can shed light on even one.
Room for growth suggests that Lojban could outgrow it’s horrible place system. I don’t think that’s true. It’s a core design flaw.
Admitting that lujvo are problematic doesn’t help. They are a core feature of the language.
At least there are consistent rules, even if they are currently incomplete or inadequate in some places.
There’s nothing consistent about gismu/lujvo places.
The lojban dictionary isn’t even consistent on the meaning of melbi/beautiful.
The translation to french suggests that X3 is a standard. The translation to English suggests that X3 is aspect while X4 is a standard.
From the outside I might think that the pure lojban dictionary is the most important definition and it suggests that the word has three places. On the other hand most of the translations have four places. The English one has four places.
If we take the English one has canonical then why does X3 mean aspect for beautiful but X3 for good isn’t aspect? That’s far from there being consistent rules.
The lack of prepositions means that you can’t use them for backrefrerencing. That leaves Lojban which wants backreferencing to be evaluated automatically with the very ugly way of backreferencing via the beginning letter of words.
If nothing else, Lojban can show us some places where our own languages are… less than rigorous in promoting good mental habits. Our languages, cultures, and customs leave us with plenty of blind spots and I am happy for any tool that can shed light on even one.
You can make the same arguments for a lot of languages. I do grant that Lojban has a variety of unique ideas that are useful to think about when designing a new language but too much is flawed at the core of Lojban for it being more of the toy language that it’s at the moment.
I wrote a few ideas of how a better language can look like in http://lesswrong.com/r/discussion/lw/n0h/linguistic_mechanisms_for_less_wrong_cognition/ .
The rise of China and the way China works, suggests to me that they likely will decide in a few decades that they don’t want to do their science in English.
It would be great if we have a real alternative by that point that’s acceptable to the Chinese because it’s culturally neutral. I don’t think Lojban can be that language.
You see a fundamentally flawed system. I see resonances with word games played by children and the foundations of computer science. We may be looking at something that touches deeply in our psyche here and that makes it worth continuing to explore.
The lojban dictionary isn’t even consistent on the meaning of melbi/beautiful.
Have you reported this bookkeeping error to the LLG? I’m sure they would be happy to correct one dictionary or the other if you did.
The lack of prepositions means that you can’t use them for backrefrerencing.
Lojban offers a robust backreferencing facility. There are the KOhA and BRODA series for starters, and if you don’t like using variables you can always simply name any grammatical construct using [something] du la [name].
The rise of China… I don’t think Lojban can be that language.
Irrelevant as creating an international auxiliary lanugage is not the goal of the LLG. source
I wrote a few ideas of how a better language can look...
I’m happy that you have given the topic so much thought! I sincerely and enthusiastically look forward to studying your final product.
I see resonances with word games played by children and the foundations of computer science.
Loglan did try to implement some of computer science but based on a 1955 understanding of what became to be computer science. James Cooke Brown didn’t focus on math. Math had to be created by the Lojban project as an afterthought. Because Loglan isn’t number friendly it gave useful gismu space to months and weekdays instead of simply calling them by numbers. It has 4 cardinal directions like natlangs instead of allowing the user to specify any angle he pleases.
Lojban forget to include graph theory. I layed out how graph theory could be used to describe relationships in another thread
As far as backreferencing goes KOhA give you the ability to say:
la .alis. klama le zarci .i ko’a goi la .alis. cu blanu
Alice goes-to the store. It-1, also-known-as Alice, is-blue.
The problem with that is that it has to repeat unnecessary information.
I would prefer a construction that says:
Alice goes-to the store. “Agent of last sentence” is-blue.
Along with one that says:
Alice goes-to the store. “Destination of the last sentence” is-red.
The information about agent and destination is already communicated in a way where the brain has to keep track of it to understand the message.
To do that consistently you would need an ontological commitment that the destination for goes to is the same ontological concept as the destination for runs to. As far as Lojban is concerned those two concepts of destination have nothing to do with each other.
5.4) la .alis. goi ko’a klama le zarci .i ko’a cu blanu
Alice, also-known-as it-1, goes-to the store. It-1 is-blue.
Have you reported this bookkeeping error to the LLG? I’m sure they would be happy to correct one dictionary or he other if you did.
No, I don’t know how the internal reporting process of the LLG works. The probably also should simply have a script that checks for all words whether the translations have the same
Irrelevant as creating an international auxiliary lanugage is not the goal of the LLC.
Lojban doesn’t seem to have any real goals. At the present it’s a toy language and it will likely stay that way. On the other hand it would be great to have a useful loglang that takes a bigger role in society.
I’m happy that you have given the topic so much thought! I sincerely and enthusiastically look forward to studying your final product.
It will probably take 5 to 10 years.
On open problem is language governance. How do you create a way that multiple people can work at the same language together while with minimal commitments to starting concepts?
I lack understanding of how new word formation works in languages that derive everything from roots like Esperanto/Hebrew/Chinese. It seems that new body of knowledge in academic science but also other fields of inquiry need a way to generate new words.
CFAR’s coinage of a tap for a trigger-action plan seems to be a good move to bring a new concept into the language.
Apart from CFAR language development I also engage with other alternative knowledge systems build on top of English/German/French.
I personally am not big on writing poety directly but I explore overloading words in other contexts like hypnosis.
I think open discussion about the flaws of existing languages is very important even when not immediately proposing an alternative.
The problem with that is that it has to repeat unnecessary information.
Oh, you want ri, ra, ru from selma’o KOhA5, and the go’a series from selma’o GOhA. You can also just use ko’a without explicit assignment and trust the audience to get the meaning from context the same way we do in most natural languages.
la .alis. klama le zarci .i ra goi ko’a cu blanu .i ko’a cu sidju
The ra selects for la .alis. without having to repeat any information. Alternately, if you don’t trust your audience to understand counting rules, la .alis. goi ko’a cu klama le zarci .i ko’a cu sidju mi works just fine as well.
Alternately, i you don’t trust your audience to understand counting rules
The problem is not “understandign counting rules” the problem is that it takes mental bandwith to do counting. It doesn’t take mental bandwith to know which of the objects in the last sentence was the destination.
On the other hand it’s mentally easier to calculate the distance between month-3 and month-6 then between March and June. But that kind of thought didn’t enter into Loglan. It just copied the way Western languages talk about months.
It’s easy to take a dictionary and simply give every English concept a new name. It’s quite hard to actually think at the fundamental level about the concept in question and how reality can be sliced.
Jahai seems to slice odors better than English. But it might be not trival to teach Jahai derived odor categories.
Maybe for ordinary people (like me), the mental difference between March and June is not just the number of days separating them, and does not equal MD between, say, July and October. Calling them by numbers would mean having to re-tie the connotation tails to new symbols, nothing more.
Your discussion points are all over the map. We’ve gone way off the topic of ambiguity vs. specificity. It sounds like you’ve got an ax to grind against Lojban, and now Loglan as well. I’m not here to help you with that.
I think it’s worthwhile to critize the flaws of existing languages. I don’t have a specific ax to grind against Lojban. It’s an interesting experiment that provides data.
It’s a more interesting language to learn from then from a language like ROILA which is much worth thought out.
I’m afraid that really only holds for klama (X1 goes to X2 [destination] from X3 [origin] via X4 [route] using X5 [transportation]) and, perhaps, a few other specific words due to their place structures. There is an extensive set of particles (cmavo) to discuss location and directionality in (usually up to four) dimensions. These, or compounds made from them, may be appended to many grammatical structures. Though, unlike many natural languages, lojban does not actually require utterances to make claims about time or number.
The reference material for the lojban space/time system is here if you are interested, and a quick-reference sheet here, though the latter lacks the grammatical explanations that help the system make sense.
What if you want to say that something is good but that there is no beneficiary and no standard? A language should not exclude certain possibilities just because the person that invented the language thinks that they cannot happen in reality.
By what standard should it not?
If you don’t want to specify a beneficiary or standard, you can just leave those blanks empty, and people often do so, allowing context to fill in the necessary information. If a listener needs more detail they can always ask for it. lojban questions happen to take the form of requests to fill in a specific blank.
I gather that back in the 1990s there was quite the argument regarding what place structure certain words “should” have. In the end, the Logical Language Group decided on the current definitions and declared that they were making no metaphysical claims, it’s just that words have to be defined one way or another. Too, there are grammatical ways to add, explicitly delete, or rearrange places in any word if the author should feel the need.
The result is that the place system is extremely horrible and hard to use because every word has it’s own rules about it’s places.
I’ve not found it to be so, but you are welcome to your own evaluation, friend. :)
In general, x1 tends to be analogous to an English subject and x2 like an English object for gismu where that applies. At any rate, I don’t think of memorizing even 1300 completely random place structures as any great mental burden compared to, for example, conjugating verbs in English, Spanish or French; or declining nouns in Latin.
Yes, if you only use the x1 and x2 of a gismu that’s true. You are also not finished by memorizing 1300 place structures because Lujvo also have places and you can’t be sure which places of the words on which the Lujvo is build get actually used for that purpose.
Fair enough, but still far less troublesome than the structure of any natural language I’ve ever studied, IMO, where each of many thousands of words must be memorized separately for mastery. At least there are consistent rules, even if they are currently incomplete or inadequate in some places. The language is still very young, after all. Even the documentation admits that lujvo are a bit problematic. Room for growth is not necessarily a bad thing.
This is a start toward what may be a better way of communicating (than many natural languages by standard of understandability ;). If nothing else, Lojban can show us some places where our own languages are… less than rigorous in promoting good mental habits. Our languages, cultures, and customs leave us with plenty of blind spots and I am happy for any tool that can shed light on even one.
Room for growth suggests that Lojban could outgrow it’s horrible place system. I don’t think that’s true. It’s a core design flaw. Admitting that lujvo are problematic doesn’t help. They are a core feature of the language.
There’s nothing consistent about gismu/lujvo places. The lojban dictionary isn’t even consistent on the meaning of
melbi/beautiful.The translation to french suggests that X3 is a standard. The translation to English suggests that X3 is aspect while X4 is a standard. From the outside I might think that the pure lojban dictionary is the most important definition and it suggests that the word has three places. On the other hand most of the translations have four places. The English one has four places.
If we take the English one has canonical then why does X3 mean aspect for
beautifulbut X3 for good isn’taspect? That’s far from there being consistent rules.The lack of prepositions means that you can’t use them for backrefrerencing. That leaves Lojban which wants backreferencing to be evaluated automatically with the very ugly way of backreferencing via the beginning letter of words.
You can make the same arguments for a lot of languages. I do grant that Lojban has a variety of unique ideas that are useful to think about when designing a new language but too much is flawed at the core of Lojban for it being more of the toy language that it’s at the moment.
I wrote a few ideas of how a better language can look like in http://lesswrong.com/r/discussion/lw/n0h/linguistic_mechanisms_for_less_wrong_cognition/ . The rise of China and the way China works, suggests to me that they likely will decide in a few decades that they don’t want to do their science in English. It would be great if we have a real alternative by that point that’s acceptable to the Chinese because it’s culturally neutral. I don’t think Lojban can be that language.
You see a fundamentally flawed system. I see resonances with word games played by children and the foundations of computer science. We may be looking at something that touches deeply in our psyche here and that makes it worth continuing to explore.
Have you reported this bookkeeping error to the LLG? I’m sure they would be happy to correct one dictionary or the other if you did.
Lojban offers a robust backreferencing facility. There are the KOhA and BRODA series for starters, and if you don’t like using variables you can always simply name any grammatical construct using [something] du la [name].
Irrelevant as creating an international auxiliary lanugage is not the goal of the LLG. source
I’m happy that you have given the topic so much thought! I sincerely and enthusiastically look forward to studying your final product.
Peace, Friend.
Loglan did try to implement some of computer science but based on a 1955 understanding of what became to be computer science. James Cooke Brown didn’t focus on math. Math had to be created by the Lojban project as an afterthought. Because Loglan isn’t number friendly it gave useful gismu space to months and weekdays instead of simply calling them by numbers. It has 4 cardinal directions like natlangs instead of allowing the user to specify any angle he pleases.
Lojban forget to include graph theory. I layed out how graph theory could be used to describe relationships in another thread
As far as backreferencing goes KOhA give you the ability to say: la .alis. klama le zarci .i ko’a goi la .alis. cu blanu Alice goes-to the store. It-1, also-known-as Alice, is-blue.
The problem with that is that it has to repeat unnecessary information.
I would prefer a construction that says: Alice goes-to the store. “Agent of last sentence” is-blue.
Along with one that says: Alice goes-to the store. “Destination of the last sentence” is-red.
The information about
agentanddestinationis already communicated in a way where the brain has to keep track of it to understand the message.To do that consistently you would need an ontological commitment that the destination for
goes tois the same ontological concept as the destination forruns to. As far as Lojban is concerned those two concepts of destination have nothing to do with each other.5.4) la .alis. goi ko’a klama le zarci .i ko’a cu blanu Alice, also-known-as it-1, goes-to the store. It-1 is-blue.
No, I don’t know how the internal reporting process of the LLG works. The probably also should simply have a script that checks for all words whether the translations have the same
Lojban doesn’t seem to have any real goals. At the present it’s a toy language and it will likely stay that way. On the other hand it would be great to have a useful loglang that takes a bigger role in society.
It will probably take 5 to 10 years. On open problem is language governance. How do you create a way that multiple people can work at the same language together while with minimal commitments to starting concepts?
I lack understanding of how new word formation works in languages that derive everything from roots like Esperanto/Hebrew/Chinese. It seems that new body of knowledge in academic science but also other fields of inquiry need a way to generate new words. CFAR’s coinage of
a tapfora trigger-action planseems to be a good move to bring a new concept into the language.Apart from CFAR language development I also engage with other alternative knowledge systems build on top of English/German/French. I personally am not big on writing poety directly but I explore overloading words in other contexts like hypnosis.
I think open discussion about the flaws of existing languages is very important even when not immediately proposing an alternative.
Oh, you want ri, ra, ru from selma’o KOhA5, and the go’a series from selma’o GOhA. You can also just use ko’a without explicit assignment and trust the audience to get the meaning from context the same way we do in most natural languages.
la .alis. klama le zarci .i ra goi ko’a cu blanu .i ko’a cu sidju
The ra selects for la .alis. without having to repeat any information. Alternately, if you don’t trust your audience to understand counting rules, la .alis. goi ko’a cu klama le zarci .i ko’a cu sidju mi works just fine as well.
The problem is not “understandign counting rules” the problem is that it takes mental bandwith to do counting. It doesn’t take mental bandwith to know which of the objects in the last sentence was the destination.
On the other hand it’s mentally easier to calculate the distance between month-3 and month-6 then between March and June. But that kind of thought didn’t enter into Loglan. It just copied the way Western languages talk about months.
It’s easy to take a dictionary and simply give every English concept a new name. It’s quite hard to actually think at the fundamental level about the concept in question and how reality can be sliced. Jahai seems to slice odors better than English. But it might be not trival to teach Jahai derived odor categories.
Maybe for ordinary people (like me), the mental difference between March and June is not just the number of days separating them, and does not equal MD between, say, July and October. Calling them by numbers would mean having to re-tie the connotation tails to new symbols, nothing more.
Your discussion points are all over the map. We’ve gone way off the topic of ambiguity vs. specificity. It sounds like you’ve got an ax to grind against Lojban, and now Loglan as well. I’m not here to help you with that.
fe’o
I think it’s worthwhile to critize the flaws of existing languages. I don’t have a specific ax to grind against Lojban. It’s an interesting experiment that provides data.
It’s a more interesting language to learn from then from a language like ROILA which is much worth thought out.
Kinda reminds me how in Tatar language endings of nouns can specify direction and other stuff (kitaphanede—in the library.)
I’m afraid that really only holds for klama (X1 goes to X2 [destination] from X3 [origin] via X4 [route] using X5 [transportation]) and, perhaps, a few other specific words due to their place structures. There is an extensive set of particles (cmavo) to discuss location and directionality in (usually up to four) dimensions. These, or compounds made from them, may be appended to many grammatical structures. Though, unlike many natural languages, lojban does not actually require utterances to make claims about time or number.
The reference material for the lojban space/time system is here if you are interested, and a quick-reference sheet here, though the latter lacks the grammatical explanations that help the system make sense.