That’s why I said a “standard” option would still be available. That would just be a standard vote for one candidate. Also, raising the sanity line for voters might be a net positive …
That would help, but just adding complexities to the act of voting could turn people away (just as offering more possible modes of response to surveys can sometimes decrease response rates).
Whether that would be a good thing or a bad thing depends on what the purpose of voting is. If the purpose of voting is to benefit from collective wisdom, perhaps preventing less educated/intelligent voters from voting is a net positive. However, if the purpose of voting is to represent diverse interests in order to more fairly allocate societal resources, than preventing less educated/intelligent voters from voting could leave them less effectively represented.
Right now, I bet that over 50% of the people who vote in a US presidential general election couldn’t explain how the electoral college works, and over 10% think they are voting directly for president (if anyone is less lazy than me and looks up relevant surveys, let me know.) This doesn’t stop them from voting. My system would still have the individual candidates on the top, and only advanced voters would even care about going further. Is this really so much more complicated than the electoral system, compared to a direct voting system?
I know this has no chance of happening in a real government anytime soon, but I’d still like to talk about it. There are voting systems that are more complex than ones used in “production” and only used privately. (I can’t name any off-hand, but I’m not so familiar with voting theory.)
Also, if this is more optimal than what’s being done now, then we can educate voters, or at least know that it’s better so one day when people are ready, we can switch. What led me to this idea was thinking about the National Popular Vote, which only goes into effect if it itself gets a cetain number of votes (or rather, the strategy of the states that adopted it is to do something different if enough other states also do so.)
I know this has no chance of happening in a real government anytime soon, but I’d still like to talk about it.
That depends very much of what you mean with real government. There no reason why the student body of an university can’t be persuaded to elect their Student Government President that way.
Various open source projects govern themselves through complex processes.
LessWrong didn’t use an election to pick a moderator but we could have, if we would believe that a democratic process would have been better.
If you think you have a system for better governance than it’s a mistake to focus mainly on the national level. It’s bad to suggest that the national level should switch to a system that hasn’t proved it’s worth on a smaller scale.
As a young and idealist college student who wants to change governance, student self governance is the ideal playground. On the one hand you are facing smart people who have other interests than you, on the other hand you don’t mess up too much if you get things wrong.
That depends very much of what you mean with real government. There no reason why the student body of an university can’t be persuaded to elect their Student Government President that way.
Many folks’ response to advocacy of weird voting systems seems to be something like — “The only reason you would advocate that weird voting system is because it gives your party some sort of sneaky advantage. I don’t know enough about voting systems to know what that sneaky advantage is, but I know enough about humans to know that you’re up to something.”
Have you been in any discussion with practical implications about a voting system, based on which you make that statement or is your experience mainly about talking with people who don’t have an influence on actual voting systems?
What kind of pitch did you gave in favor of another voting system?
If all you can say is “the math is more beautiful” than that’s likely not going to convince anyone.
The electoral college system doesn’t require that they look over a long list of conditional responses and select from among them; the complexities are hidden from the voters, as you mention. I don’t think the complexity of the electoral college system provides much evidence for how prospective voters would react to a complex system of voting options.
Voting systems used privately can be more complex than voting systems for public office because a more educated population may be using them.
I’d be more concerned about getting a representative pool of voters than trying to get voters to learn a new more complex system. I don’t believe the difficulty of strategic voting is a major problem. On the other hand, I do think that reforms that reduce the cost of voting would be useful, and are being implemented in some states.
I like the national popular vote, but the complexities of that idea, like the electoral college, are hidden from voters; I don’t think it’s comparable to your ballot system.
That’s why I said a “standard” option would still be available. That would just be a standard vote for one candidate. Also, raising the sanity line for voters might be a net positive …
That would help, but just adding complexities to the act of voting could turn people away (just as offering more possible modes of response to surveys can sometimes decrease response rates).
Whether that would be a good thing or a bad thing depends on what the purpose of voting is. If the purpose of voting is to benefit from collective wisdom, perhaps preventing less educated/intelligent voters from voting is a net positive. However, if the purpose of voting is to represent diverse interests in order to more fairly allocate societal resources, than preventing less educated/intelligent voters from voting could leave them less effectively represented.
What if it’s neither of those?
Right now, I bet that over 50% of the people who vote in a US presidential general election couldn’t explain how the electoral college works, and over 10% think they are voting directly for president (if anyone is less lazy than me and looks up relevant surveys, let me know.) This doesn’t stop them from voting. My system would still have the individual candidates on the top, and only advanced voters would even care about going further. Is this really so much more complicated than the electoral system, compared to a direct voting system?
I know this has no chance of happening in a real government anytime soon, but I’d still like to talk about it. There are voting systems that are more complex than ones used in “production” and only used privately. (I can’t name any off-hand, but I’m not so familiar with voting theory.)
Also, if this is more optimal than what’s being done now, then we can educate voters, or at least know that it’s better so one day when people are ready, we can switch. What led me to this idea was thinking about the National Popular Vote, which only goes into effect if it itself gets a cetain number of votes (or rather, the strategy of the states that adopted it is to do something different if enough other states also do so.)
That depends very much of what you mean with real government. There no reason why the student body of an university can’t be persuaded to elect their Student Government President that way.
Various open source projects govern themselves through complex processes.
LessWrong didn’t use an election to pick a moderator but we could have, if we would believe that a democratic process would have been better.
If you think you have a system for better governance than it’s a mistake to focus mainly on the national level. It’s bad to suggest that the national level should switch to a system that hasn’t proved it’s worth on a smaller scale.
As a young and idealist college student who wants to change governance, student self governance is the ideal playground. On the one hand you are facing smart people who have other interests than you, on the other hand you don’t mess up too much if you get things wrong.
Many folks’ response to advocacy of weird voting systems seems to be something like — “The only reason you would advocate that weird voting system is because it gives your party some sort of sneaky advantage. I don’t know enough about voting systems to know what that sneaky advantage is, but I know enough about humans to know that you’re up to something.”
Have you been in any discussion with practical implications about a voting system, based on which you make that statement or is your experience mainly about talking with people who don’t have an influence on actual voting systems?
It was, in fact, to do with student government. :)
What kind of pitch did you gave in favor of another voting system? If all you can say is “the math is more beautiful” than that’s likely not going to convince anyone.
The electoral college system doesn’t require that they look over a long list of conditional responses and select from among them; the complexities are hidden from the voters, as you mention. I don’t think the complexity of the electoral college system provides much evidence for how prospective voters would react to a complex system of voting options.
Voting systems used privately can be more complex than voting systems for public office because a more educated population may be using them.
I’d be more concerned about getting a representative pool of voters than trying to get voters to learn a new more complex system. I don’t believe the difficulty of strategic voting is a major problem. On the other hand, I do think that reforms that reduce the cost of voting would be useful, and are being implemented in some states.
I like the national popular vote, but the complexities of that idea, like the electoral college, are hidden from voters; I don’t think it’s comparable to your ballot system.