Well, the journey of a thousand miles and all that… :-)
In LW it could be a rationalist dojo: “So you think you can rationally discuss what the government should do about late-term abortions? SHOW ME!” :-D
LW is already a step above the usual ’net forums. I haven’t seen exhortations to think of the children, no one called anyone a traitor recently, direct personal attacks are strongly discouraged, etc.
This one is a rather good example of my original point tbh
All the Scandinavian countries did just this in the 60s and 70s when abortions had become a reasonably safe procedure and all of them ended up with some variant of:
No questions asked in first trimester
Medical reasons in second and third trimester
Induced birth and adoption if foetus is viable.
And since around 1980, there has been zero controversy on the subject, mostly because just about everyone is happy with things as they are.
And since around 1980, there has been zero controversy on the subject, mostly because just about everyone is happy with things as they are.
Everybody being happy may not be the only reason why isn’t there a controversy. I think controversy also depends on a cultural factor where people really push their own opinion hard vs. just accept whatever the social compromise seems to be.
America is very strongly in the former, passionately political since the New Deal, before that not so much aside from the north-south thing. The UK rather the opposite, this is why Thatcher made such a surprise, they weren’t used to a politician with an actual vision, ideology and fire in the belly. Usually UK politicians easily support things that don’t really match their ideology, like conservative Churchill supporting the creation of the NHS or Blair’s Labour privatizing school playgrounds. I currently live in Austria, which is just about extremely boring, politically, everything is a compromise. Actually the head of the state literally said “I think being boring is a national characteristic here… but it is also OK, people can provide their own excitement, it is not the job of politics.” I consider Germany and post-Gaulle France also fairly boring politically. France always has surprises though. Italy, now they are never boring, their politics is an incredible freak show :-) I don’t know very much about Scandinavia, they seem to be in between, usually very compromise oriented, but also there always seems to be some kind of current issue to be fired up about. In Sweden it seems it is currently largely feminism, in Denmark it is the stupid car tax that tries to protect the environment by cutting down emissions and its actual effect is people having far older cars in the average than in similar countries, which of course increases emissions. I have discussed this with Danish people and asked them if a strongly anti-car politics means the capitol pushing its own interests on small towns that have very different interests, and they seemed to mainly agree, while driving me around Svenstrup.
An old description of the Balkans comes to mind: “It’s the region of Europe which produces much more politics than can be domestically consumed” :-)
Also, keep in mind that there are two antonyms of “boring”—“exciting” and “entertaining”. It’s fine for politics to be entertaining (see Italy), but “exciting” is iffy. Syrian politics are very exciting at the moment, for example.
Denmark it is the stupid car tax that tries to protect the environment by cutting down emissions and its actual effect is people having far older cars in the average than in similar countries, which of course increases emissions
Even if we grant that? Given that a lot of energy goes into the creation of a car, that’s not a straightforward argument. The taxes also reduce car ownership.
Cutting down emissions is also not the only reason to tax cars. Cars provide public costs. Large amounts of space is used up by parking.
http://www.copenhagenize.com/2012/10/danish-180-tax-on-cars-is-rather.html
Wow. I just uncritically accepted when my local friends told me their fleet is old. It sounded logical… also the cars in that town really seemed 5+ years.
Parking is not a good argument because it depends where. My whole point is that ideal policy would be cutting down on cars in big cities but leaving them alone in rural areas where they are far more necessary, there are hardly any parking problems, and so on. This is entirely uncontroversial AFAIK it is generally accepted by urbanism experts that the feasibility of public transport depends on population density and especially on people commuting between well defined residential areas (suburbs) to working areas (downtowns usually, or industrial or commercial parks). Bicycling is more of a downtown thing too, beyond 5km distance it is less ideal. People who live in one small town and work in another one 20km away should drive, at best, car-share. So policies should be location based, such as London style entry taxes / congestion charges or Vienna style no free parking.
On a more meta note, on how to design a policy, in so far that it is possible, they should imitate the logic of the markets, that there should be an emerging, dynamic balance generated by different needs. Jack up the price of parking in every location where you really don’t want cars. Or even reduce parking spaces. Doing it consistently would also cut down on the number of cars, because when people realize everywhere they want to drive to, mostly at work, is expensive, they will get rid of them, which is exactly what I did. However those people who mainly drive to places where parking is free will keep them, and this is a good thing, because it suggests they are sticking to low-density locations and it is a good choice there.
And since around 1980, there has been zero controversy on the subject, mostly because just about everyone is happy with things as they are.
Given the Swedish attitude towards free speech, are you sure that’s a case of “just about everyone is happy with things as they are” and not, nobody dares challenge the consensus for fear of the “anti-fascist” thought police?
This genuinely threw me because I had no idea there was anything wrong with freedom of speech in Sweden. This because I get consistently less flak when I express controversial views among Swedish friends than when among Americans. My handful of Swedish friends appears not to be representative.
On the other hand, the same is true in Norway, Denmark and Finland and they have quite significantly less issues. Also, I realise ‘everyone is happy’ was poor wording. A better one would be ‘everyone has agreed this is a workable compromise that it’s not worth fighting over, for a value of everyone that is approx. 95% of the population’
Most people in the US would be happy with those arrangements. The abortion controversy in the US is manufactured—those opposing abortion focus their rhetoric almost entirely on second-and-third trimester abortion, those who support it focus their rhetoric almost entirely on first-trimester abortion, and both sides pretend the other side is talking about the same thing they’re talking about.
The controversy, that is, is produced by the opposing sides asking different questions.
~70% of people don’t care or want the first trimester to be legal (AFAIK it’s legal in all states). ~65% want the second trimester to be illegal (no idea what the legal status is). ~80% want the last trimester to be illegal (It is illegal in all but 8 states).
~75% want abortion to be legal for medical reasons, regardless of trimester.
Most people in the US would be happy with those arrangements. The abortion controversy in the US is manufactured—those opposing abortion focus their rhetoric almost entirely on second-and-third trimester abortion, those who support it focus their rhetoric almost entirely on first-trimester abortion, and both sides pretend the other side is talking about the same thing they’re talking about.
And yet look what happens when people try to bad third trimester abortions.
Well, the journey of a thousand miles and all that… :-)
In LW it could be a rationalist dojo: “So you think you can rationally discuss what the government should do about late-term abortions? SHOW ME!” :-D
LW is already a step above the usual ’net forums. I haven’t seen exhortations to think of the children, no one called anyone a traitor recently, direct personal attacks are strongly discouraged, etc.
This one is a rather good example of my original point tbh
All the Scandinavian countries did just this in the 60s and 70s when abortions had become a reasonably safe procedure and all of them ended up with some variant of:
No questions asked in first trimester Medical reasons in second and third trimester Induced birth and adoption if foetus is viable.
And since around 1980, there has been zero controversy on the subject, mostly because just about everyone is happy with things as they are.
Everybody being happy may not be the only reason why isn’t there a controversy. I think controversy also depends on a cultural factor where people really push their own opinion hard vs. just accept whatever the social compromise seems to be.
America is very strongly in the former, passionately political since the New Deal, before that not so much aside from the north-south thing. The UK rather the opposite, this is why Thatcher made such a surprise, they weren’t used to a politician with an actual vision, ideology and fire in the belly. Usually UK politicians easily support things that don’t really match their ideology, like conservative Churchill supporting the creation of the NHS or Blair’s Labour privatizing school playgrounds. I currently live in Austria, which is just about extremely boring, politically, everything is a compromise. Actually the head of the state literally said “I think being boring is a national characteristic here… but it is also OK, people can provide their own excitement, it is not the job of politics.” I consider Germany and post-Gaulle France also fairly boring politically. France always has surprises though. Italy, now they are never boring, their politics is an incredible freak show :-) I don’t know very much about Scandinavia, they seem to be in between, usually very compromise oriented, but also there always seems to be some kind of current issue to be fired up about. In Sweden it seems it is currently largely feminism, in Denmark it is the stupid car tax that tries to protect the environment by cutting down emissions and its actual effect is people having far older cars in the average than in similar countries, which of course increases emissions. I have discussed this with Danish people and asked them if a strongly anti-car politics means the capitol pushing its own interests on small towns that have very different interests, and they seemed to mainly agree, while driving me around Svenstrup.
An old description of the Balkans comes to mind: “It’s the region of Europe which produces much more politics than can be domestically consumed” :-)
Also, keep in mind that there are two antonyms of “boring”—“exciting” and “entertaining”. It’s fine for politics to be entertaining (see Italy), but “exciting” is iffy. Syrian politics are very exciting at the moment, for example.
What’s similar countries for you?According to the numbers I find the Danish fleet is a year younger than Sweden, Iceland and Norways fleet (http://www.icenews.is/2010/03/21/nordic-region-cars-among-europe%E2%80%99s-oldest/).
Even if we grant that? Given that a lot of energy goes into the creation of a car, that’s not a straightforward argument. The taxes also reduce car ownership. Cutting down emissions is also not the only reason to tax cars. Cars provide public costs. Large amounts of space is used up by parking. http://www.copenhagenize.com/2012/10/danish-180-tax-on-cars-is-rather.html
Wow. I just uncritically accepted when my local friends told me their fleet is old. It sounded logical… also the cars in that town really seemed 5+ years.
Parking is not a good argument because it depends where. My whole point is that ideal policy would be cutting down on cars in big cities but leaving them alone in rural areas where they are far more necessary, there are hardly any parking problems, and so on. This is entirely uncontroversial AFAIK it is generally accepted by urbanism experts that the feasibility of public transport depends on population density and especially on people commuting between well defined residential areas (suburbs) to working areas (downtowns usually, or industrial or commercial parks). Bicycling is more of a downtown thing too, beyond 5km distance it is less ideal. People who live in one small town and work in another one 20km away should drive, at best, car-share. So policies should be location based, such as London style entry taxes / congestion charges or Vienna style no free parking.
On a more meta note, on how to design a policy, in so far that it is possible, they should imitate the logic of the markets, that there should be an emerging, dynamic balance generated by different needs. Jack up the price of parking in every location where you really don’t want cars. Or even reduce parking spaces. Doing it consistently would also cut down on the number of cars, because when people realize everywhere they want to drive to, mostly at work, is expensive, they will get rid of them, which is exactly what I did. However those people who mainly drive to places where parking is free will keep them, and this is a good thing, because it suggests they are sticking to low-density locations and it is a good choice there.
Given the Swedish attitude towards free speech, are you sure that’s a case of “just about everyone is happy with things as they are” and not, nobody dares challenge the consensus for fear of the “anti-fascist” thought police?
This genuinely threw me because I had no idea there was anything wrong with freedom of speech in Sweden. This because I get consistently less flak when I express controversial views among Swedish friends than when among Americans. My handful of Swedish friends appears not to be representative.
On the other hand, the same is true in Norway, Denmark and Finland and they have quite significantly less issues. Also, I realise ‘everyone is happy’ was poor wording. A better one would be ‘everyone has agreed this is a workable compromise that it’s not worth fighting over, for a value of everyone that is approx. 95% of the population’
Most people in the US would be happy with those arrangements. The abortion controversy in the US is manufactured—those opposing abortion focus their rhetoric almost entirely on second-and-third trimester abortion, those who support it focus their rhetoric almost entirely on first-trimester abortion, and both sides pretend the other side is talking about the same thing they’re talking about.
The controversy, that is, is produced by the opposing sides asking different questions.
~70% of people don’t care or want the first trimester to be legal (AFAIK it’s legal in all states). ~65% want the second trimester to be illegal (no idea what the legal status is). ~80% want the last trimester to be illegal (It is illegal in all but 8 states).
~75% want abortion to be legal for medical reasons, regardless of trimester.
About 30% of the US population would be unhappy with the Swedish arrangement. http://www.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx
Compare that to the manufactured controversy: http://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson/2014/03/10/cnn-poll-58-percent-of-americans-oppose-abortion-in-all-or-most-circumstances-n1806283
And yet look what happens when people try to bad third trimester abortions.