The items on that list of appeals can also be ranked. According to mainstream US values, “Appeal to egalitarianism” trumps “Appeal to unquestionable authority”, “Appeal to personal freedom” trumps “Appeal to egalitarianism”; and so on. The standard political talk show debate consists of a back-and-forth escalation up this ladder.
For example, in a televised debate on regulation:
Person 1: “The National Bureau of Economics Research published a study showing conclusively that regulation of X is harmful” (authority)
Person 2: “Well, I don’t care what the elite economists say; the poor are not getting equal access to X and that is unfair.” (egalitarianism)
Person 1: “Sure, it’s unequal, but if the government played big brother with X, that would violate our fundamental freedoms.” (personal freedom)
I think Eliezer’s using these terms in a more specific sense than you are. For instance, your Person 2 is making an appeal to egalitarianism (in the conventional sense) as an argument for their position; while it still may be invalid, it’s not an argument for why the debate should stop, which is what this post is about, if I’m reading it correctly. The appeal to egalitarianism is something like “Both of us have equally valid opinions, so who’s to say which of us is right or wrong? Let’s agree to disagree.” The appeal to personal freedom is “I have a right to my opinion, so by arguing with me, you’re infringing on my rights” (I encounter that one depressingly often), “I define my words this one way, so by disputing that, you’re infringing on my rights”, etc. They’re never arguments (even wrong ones) about the actual merit of the views being debated.
Meta: Why was this voted down? (I voted it up earlier, and it’s at 0 karma at the moment.)
I understand that the actual point in the comment is tangential to the original article, and thus could be taken as off-topic or wrong, but I find it valuable to read such comments and the reactions that they evoke; such exchanges help point out the limitations of the tools and frameworks being discussed.
I voted it up as an interesting tangent and a credible point. While lunchbox is talking about a different usage of the appeals it does demonstrate that there is a blurry line there between ‘conversation halter’ and ‘actual argument that isn’t necessarily designed to end the debate except in as much as they think they other person should see their error and concur’. Intent, context and tone make huge differences here.
I’m not entirely sure it’s the same. I mean, what you’re describing is more a policy/decision debate. That is where principles like egalitarianism, personal freedom, and such are actually valid to appeal to since they’re part of that-which-we-value.
It’s not exactly the same thing as what the OP is talking about, is it? (unless person 2 is saying “because it is unfair, the study that implied those consequences is, in fact, invalid” rather than “even given those consequences, it’s still worthwhile because this value here is so important”)
The items on that list of appeals can also be ranked. According to mainstream US values, “Appeal to egalitarianism” trumps “Appeal to unquestionable authority”, “Appeal to personal freedom” trumps “Appeal to egalitarianism”; and so on. The standard political talk show debate consists of a back-and-forth escalation up this ladder.
For example, in a televised debate on regulation:
Person 1: “The National Bureau of Economics Research published a study showing conclusively that regulation of X is harmful” (authority)
Person 2: “Well, I don’t care what the elite economists say; the poor are not getting equal access to X and that is unfair.” (egalitarianism)
Person 1: “Sure, it’s unequal, but if the government played big brother with X, that would violate our fundamental freedoms.” (personal freedom)
I think Eliezer’s using these terms in a more specific sense than you are. For instance, your Person 2 is making an appeal to egalitarianism (in the conventional sense) as an argument for their position; while it still may be invalid, it’s not an argument for why the debate should stop, which is what this post is about, if I’m reading it correctly. The appeal to egalitarianism is something like “Both of us have equally valid opinions, so who’s to say which of us is right or wrong? Let’s agree to disagree.” The appeal to personal freedom is “I have a right to my opinion, so by arguing with me, you’re infringing on my rights” (I encounter that one depressingly often), “I define my words this one way, so by disputing that, you’re infringing on my rights”, etc. They’re never arguments (even wrong ones) about the actual merit of the views being debated.
Oops, yes, I misread the original post. Thanks for pointing that out.
Meta: Why was this voted down? (I voted it up earlier, and it’s at 0 karma at the moment.)
I understand that the actual point in the comment is tangential to the original article, and thus could be taken as off-topic or wrong, but I find it valuable to read such comments and the reactions that they evoke; such exchanges help point out the limitations of the tools and frameworks being discussed.
I voted it up as an interesting tangent and a credible point. While lunchbox is talking about a different usage of the appeals it does demonstrate that there is a blurry line there between ‘conversation halter’ and ‘actual argument that isn’t necessarily designed to end the debate except in as much as they think they other person should see their error and concur’. Intent, context and tone make huge differences here.
I’m not entirely sure it’s the same. I mean, what you’re describing is more a policy/decision debate. That is where principles like egalitarianism, personal freedom, and such are actually valid to appeal to since they’re part of that-which-we-value.
It’s not exactly the same thing as what the OP is talking about, is it? (unless person 2 is saying “because it is unfair, the study that implied those consequences is, in fact, invalid” rather than “even given those consequences, it’s still worthwhile because this value here is so important”)