A more accurate description would be that center of Roman civilization shifted from Italy to Eastern Mediterranean long before that (Wikipedia says that population of Rome fell from almost a million to mere 30 thousand in Late Antiquity, making it really just a minor town before the Barbarians moved in).
Roman civilization had had several major centers. The ones in the West gradually ceased to exist. That’s the only sense in which the center of civilization “shifted”. Some wealthy citizens of the city of Rome may have fled east, but the vast majority of the population of the western empire (Italy, Gaul, Iberia, Britain, Africa, not to mention the western Balkans and adjacent areas which were also conquered by barbarians in the 4th century) were agricultural and could flee only if they left all their posessions behind.
IOW, the fall of population by 60-80% in these areas during the 4th and 5th centuries wasn’t accomplished by emigration. (Not to mention the immigration of barbarians.)
As for the city of Rome, it was sacked by barbarians in the years 410 and 455. WP suggests that its population declined from several hundred thousand to 80,000 during approximately the fifth century, but this is unsourced and I would like better information. At any rate, at the time of the 410 sack the population was already far below its 2nd century peak of 2 million. By the 4th century the emperors didn’t live there anymore (some of the 5th century ones apparently did though), so its decline started before the invasions. Still, it was much more than a “minor town” in 410, containing many riches to plunder and rich and noble people to hold for ransom.
All in all, the Roman Empire did collapse. In ~400 the Western parts of the empire existed as it had for >200 years. By 450 it was effectively restricted to Italy and parts of southern Gaul, and in 476 it was officially terminated by the death of the last Western Emperor.
Compare this map of the entire empire in 117 (not much different than in 400). That’s a loss, inside 60 years, of all of Europe west of the Balkans (including Italy), and all of Africa west of Egypt (the province of Africa, around Carthage, had been a major source of agricultural produce).
The Eastern empire did reconquer some of the West in mid 6th century. It lost half of that again by 600, and most of the other half by 650. In any case its rule there wasn’t very much like the original Roman system in terms of culture (the barbarians were the local rulers) or economics, taxes and representation.
at least until battle of Manzikert in 1071 the central parts of Roman (Byzantine) Empire were doing just fine.
Those central parts were on the order of one-twentieth the area ruled by Romans pre-collapse, and many of them were to the east of the original Empire. Just because they preserved unbroken political succession and the name of Romans doesn’t mean we should identify them with the original Empire.
In ~400 the Western parts of the empire existed as it had for >200 years. By 450 it was effectively restricted to Italy and parts of southern Gaul, and in 476 it was officially terminated by the death of the last Western Emperor.
Not quite accurate; in 376 a big bunch of barbarians half-forced, half-negotiated their way into the Empire, became disloyal subjects, and subsequently pillaged the Balkans and defeated killed an (Eastern) emperor and his army. So it’s better to say that the Western Empire declined almost entirely during the 100 years 376-476. (Politically, militarily, and on a local rule level this is true. Culturally the collapse did take longer in some places.)
Culturally the collapse did take longer in some places
It’d argue that culturally the Roman Empire didn’t end: today 200 million Europeans (and even more outside Europe) speak languages descended from Latin; to a first approximation, all writing is in the Roman script; and the Roman Catholic Church is the largest religion in areas and populations much greater than ancient Rome.
Oh and that last paragraph included c.15 words derived from Latin.
A few small, scattered, out of context, highly mutated facets of Roman culture have survived here and there. None of these, except Christianity, were among those most important to Romans, or those they saw as primarily distinguishing them from other cultures.
And RC Christianity, apart from the name, is vastly different today than in 500 CE (and both are vastly different from RC Christianity in, say, 1300 CE). A modern Catholic would certainly be considered a sinner and a heretic many times over in 500 CE, and probably vice versa as well (I haven’t checked).
Incidentally, we are corresponding in a language that has much more in common with old Germanic tongues than with Latin, but it doesn’t follow that we retain any of their culture. And here in Israel I talk and write a Hebrew which is quite similar to late Roman-era Hebrew—certainly more so than English is to German or Latin—and Orthodox Jews are the biggest religious segment in the country, but it doesn’t follow that we (the non-religious people) have anything in common with ancient Jewish culture. (Consider that the vast majority of Europeans don’t strictly follow RC rules either.)
Roman civilization had had several major centers. The ones in the West gradually ceased to exist. That’s the only sense in which the center of civilization “shifted”. Some wealthy citizens of the city of Rome may have fled east, but the vast majority of the population of the western empire (Italy, Gaul, Iberia, Britain, Africa, not to mention the western Balkans and adjacent areas which were also conquered by barbarians in the 4th century) were agricultural and could flee only if they left all their posessions behind.
IOW, the fall of population by 60-80% in these areas during the 4th and 5th centuries wasn’t accomplished by emigration. (Not to mention the immigration of barbarians.)
As for the city of Rome, it was sacked by barbarians in the years 410 and 455. WP suggests that its population declined from several hundred thousand to 80,000 during approximately the fifth century, but this is unsourced and I would like better information. At any rate, at the time of the 410 sack the population was already far below its 2nd century peak of 2 million. By the 4th century the emperors didn’t live there anymore (some of the 5th century ones apparently did though), so its decline started before the invasions. Still, it was much more than a “minor town” in 410, containing many riches to plunder and rich and noble people to hold for ransom.
All in all, the Roman Empire did collapse. In ~400 the Western parts of the empire existed as it had for >200 years. By 450 it was effectively restricted to Italy and parts of southern Gaul, and in 476 it was officially terminated by the death of the last Western Emperor.
Compare this map of the entire empire in 117 (not much different than in 400). That’s a loss, inside 60 years, of all of Europe west of the Balkans (including Italy), and all of Africa west of Egypt (the province of Africa, around Carthage, had been a major source of agricultural produce).
The Eastern empire did reconquer some of the West in mid 6th century. It lost half of that again by 600, and most of the other half by 650. In any case its rule there wasn’t very much like the original Roman system in terms of culture (the barbarians were the local rulers) or economics, taxes and representation.
Those central parts were on the order of one-twentieth the area ruled by Romans pre-collapse, and many of them were to the east of the original Empire. Just because they preserved unbroken political succession and the name of Romans doesn’t mean we should identify them with the original Empire.
Not quite accurate; in 376 a big bunch of barbarians half-forced, half-negotiated their way into the Empire, became disloyal subjects, and subsequently pillaged the Balkans and defeated killed an (Eastern) emperor and his army. So it’s better to say that the Western Empire declined almost entirely during the 100 years 376-476. (Politically, militarily, and on a local rule level this is true. Culturally the collapse did take longer in some places.)
It’d argue that culturally the Roman Empire didn’t end: today 200 million Europeans (and even more outside Europe) speak languages descended from Latin; to a first approximation, all writing is in the Roman script; and the Roman Catholic Church is the largest religion in areas and populations much greater than ancient Rome.
Oh and that last paragraph included c.15 words derived from Latin.
A few small, scattered, out of context, highly mutated facets of Roman culture have survived here and there. None of these, except Christianity, were among those most important to Romans, or those they saw as primarily distinguishing them from other cultures.
And RC Christianity, apart from the name, is vastly different today than in 500 CE (and both are vastly different from RC Christianity in, say, 1300 CE). A modern Catholic would certainly be considered a sinner and a heretic many times over in 500 CE, and probably vice versa as well (I haven’t checked).
Incidentally, we are corresponding in a language that has much more in common with old Germanic tongues than with Latin, but it doesn’t follow that we retain any of their culture. And here in Israel I talk and write a Hebrew which is quite similar to late Roman-era Hebrew—certainly more so than English is to German or Latin—and Orthodox Jews are the biggest religious segment in the country, but it doesn’t follow that we (the non-religious people) have anything in common with ancient Jewish culture. (Consider that the vast majority of Europeans don’t strictly follow RC rules either.)