Here’s a summary of the different species in homo—note the brain volumes. (I didn’t mean to say all were intelligent, just that they were all near-human and went extinct, but the Neanderthals were likely more intelligent.)
Neanderthals, according to Jordan (2001), appear to have had psychological traits that worked well in their early history but finally placed them at a long-term disadvantage with regards to modern humans. Jordan is of the opinion that the Neanderthal mind was sufficiently different from that of Homo sapiens to have been “alien” in the sense of thinking differently from that of modern humans, despite the obvious fact that Neanderthals were highly intelligent, with a brain as large or larger than our own. This theory is supported by what Neanderthals possessed, and just as importantly, by what they lacked, in cultural attributes and manufactured artifacts.
The WP table you link to gives these cranial volume ranges: H. sapiens, 1000-1850. H. neanderthalensis, 1200-1900.
Given the size of the ranges and > 70% overlap, the difference between 1850 and 1900 at the upper end doesn’t seem necessarily significant. Besides, brain size correlates strongly with body size, and Neanderthals were more massive, weren’t they?
More importantly, if the contemporary variation for H. sapiens (i.e. us) is all or most of that huge range (1000-1850 cc), do we know how it correlates with various measures of intellectual and other capabilities? Especially if you throw away the upper and lower 10% of variation.
It wasn’t just the brain size, but the greater technological and cultural achievements that are evidenced in their remains, which are listed and cited in the articles.
By greater do you mean greater than those of H. sapiens who lived at the same time? AFAICS, the Wikipedia articles seem to state the opposite: that Neanderthals, late ones at least, were technologically and culturally inferior to H. sapiens of the same time.
The paragraph right after the one you quoted from your second link states:
There once was a time when both human types shared essentially the same Mousterian tool kit and neither human type had a definite competitive advantage, as evidenced by the shifting Homo sapiens/Neanderthal borderland in the Middle East. But finally Homo sapiens started to attain behavioural or cultural adaptations that allowed “moderns” an advantage.
The following paragraphs (through to the end of that section of the article) detail tools and cultural or social innovations that were (by conjecture) exclusive to H. sapiens. There are no specific things listed that were exclusive to Neanderthals. What “greater achievements” do you refer to?
Also, I see no basis (at least in the WP article) for “the obvious fact that Neanderthals were highly intelligent”, except for brain size which is hardly conclusive. Why can’t we conclude that they were considerably less intelligent than their contemporary H. sapiens?
Okay, I confess, it’s above my pay grade at this point: all I can do is defer to predominant theory in the field that Neanderthals were more intelligent at the level of the individual.
Note that this doesn’t mean they were more “collectively intelligent”. If they were better at problem solving on their own, but weren’t as social as humans, they may have failed to pass knowledge between people and ended up re-inventing the wheel too much.
predominant theory in the field that Neanderthals were more intelligent at the level of the individual.
But that’s just what I’m asking about! Can you please give me some references that present or at least mention this theory? Because the WP articles don’t even seem to mention it, and I can’t find anything like it on Google.
Yes, but they also had more massive bodies, possibly 30% more massive than modern humans. I’m not sure that they had a higher brain/body mass ratio than we do and even if they had, a difference on the order of 10% isn’t strong evidence when comparing intelligence between species.
Maybe their additional brain mass was used to give them really good instincts instead of the more general purpose circuits we have.
This is a quote from Wikipedia supposedly paraphrasing Jordan, P. (2001) Neanderthal: Neanderthal Man and the Story of Human Origins.. “Since the Neanderthals evidently never used watercraft, but prior and/or arguably more primitive editions of humanity did, there is argument that Neanderthals represent a highly specialized side branch of the human tree, relying more on physiological adaptation than psychological adaptation in daily life than “moderns”. Specialization has been seen before in other hominims, such as Paranthropus boisei which evidently was adapted to eat rough vegetation.”
Note that this doesn’t mean they were more “collectively intelligent”. If they were better at problem solving on their own, but weren’t as social as humans, they may have failed to pass knowledge between people and ended up re-inventing the wheel too much.
Given the circumstances that would have been quite some achievement!
More importantly, if the contemporary variation for H. sapiens (i.e. us) is all or most of that huge range (1000-1850 cc), do we know how it correlates with various measures of intellectual and other capabilities?
Here’s a summary of the different species in homo—note the brain volumes. (I didn’t mean to say all were intelligent, just that they were all near-human and went extinct, but the Neanderthals were likely more intelligent.)
And here:
The WP table you link to gives these cranial volume ranges: H. sapiens, 1000-1850. H. neanderthalensis, 1200-1900.
Given the size of the ranges and > 70% overlap, the difference between 1850 and 1900 at the upper end doesn’t seem necessarily significant. Besides, brain size correlates strongly with body size, and Neanderthals were more massive, weren’t they?
More importantly, if the contemporary variation for H. sapiens (i.e. us) is all or most of that huge range (1000-1850 cc), do we know how it correlates with various measures of intellectual and other capabilities? Especially if you throw away the upper and lower 10% of variation.
It wasn’t just the brain size, but the greater technological and cultural achievements that are evidenced in their remains, which are listed and cited in the articles.
By greater do you mean greater than those of H. sapiens who lived at the same time? AFAICS, the Wikipedia articles seem to state the opposite: that Neanderthals, late ones at least, were technologically and culturally inferior to H. sapiens of the same time.
The paragraph right after the one you quoted from your second link states:
The following paragraphs (through to the end of that section of the article) detail tools and cultural or social innovations that were (by conjecture) exclusive to H. sapiens. There are no specific things listed that were exclusive to Neanderthals. What “greater achievements” do you refer to?
Also, I see no basis (at least in the WP article) for “the obvious fact that Neanderthals were highly intelligent”, except for brain size which is hardly conclusive. Why can’t we conclude that they were considerably less intelligent than their contemporary H. sapiens?
Okay, I confess, it’s above my pay grade at this point: all I can do is defer to predominant theory in the field that Neanderthals were more intelligent at the level of the individual.
Note that this doesn’t mean they were more “collectively intelligent”. If they were better at problem solving on their own, but weren’t as social as humans, they may have failed to pass knowledge between people and ended up re-inventing the wheel too much.
But that’s just what I’m asking about! Can you please give me some references that present or at least mention this theory? Because the WP articles don’t even seem to mention it, and I can’t find anything like it on Google.
The theory is that they had bigger brains—e.g. see the reference at:
http://lesswrong.com/lw/165/how_inevitable_was_modern_human_civilization_data/124q
Yes, but they also had more massive bodies, possibly 30% more massive than modern humans. I’m not sure that they had a higher brain/body mass ratio than we do and even if they had, a difference on the order of 10% isn’t strong evidence when comparing intelligence between species.
Maybe their additional brain mass was used to give them really good instincts instead of the more general purpose circuits we have.
This is a quote from Wikipedia supposedly paraphrasing Jordan, P. (2001) Neanderthal: Neanderthal Man and the Story of Human Origins.. “Since the Neanderthals evidently never used watercraft, but prior and/or arguably more primitive editions of humanity did, there is argument that Neanderthals represent a highly specialized side branch of the human tree, relying more on physiological adaptation than psychological adaptation in daily life than “moderns”. Specialization has been seen before in other hominims, such as Paranthropus boisei which evidently was adapted to eat rough vegetation.”
Given the circumstances that would have been quite some achievement!
.2
Can you expand please? Exactly what measurement is correlated with cranial capacity at .2?