I will clarify: My second link, “Thou Art Godshatter”, says that our values are causally rooted in evolution, which gave us our brains. CEV is supposed to extrapolate that chain of causality, in a certain way. My first link, “The Psychological Unity Of Humankind”, says that human brains are similar to each other. Chimpanzee brains are unlike human brains. There is no reason to expect human universal values to be identical to chimpanzee universal values. There is no reason to expect these species’ extrapolated values to be identical. That is what i am saying. Are you skeptical of this argument?
What do humans care about that chimps don’t?
Art, for example.
If chimps thought ten thousand times faster, would they care about those things?
The question you want to ask is, Would a CEV-extrapolated chimpanzee care about art? I don’t see why it should.
There is no reason to expect human universal values to be identical to chimpanzee universal values.
Sure there is- “maximize inclusive genetic fitness.”
Art, for example.
Are you familiar with the theory that the human brain is essentially a peacock’s tail, and that language, creative endeavors, and so on were evolved primarily to attract mating partners?
It’s possible that a chimp that gets a lot smarter won’t start having more intellectual tastes, but the basic problem of “who do I have sex with, and how do I get them to agree?” is still around and it seems like they would try very similar methods to what we have.
Ah, it seems we have different ideas about what human values actually are.
“maximize inclusive genetic fitness.”
Organisms are adaptation-executers, not fitness-maximizers. Art is a human terminal value. Maximizing inclusive genetic fitness is not. Even if the causal reason for us having this value were that artsy people get more sex, we would value art for its own sake.
I highly recommend the wiki article on the complexity of value and the articles linked from it.
Ah, it seems we have different ideas about what human values actually are.
Wait wait wait. Are we talking about human values, or human universal values? Those seem to me to be different concepts. It seems to me that what we have in common is that we’re competing with one another and what differs between humans is how we compete and what we seek to maximize.
I think the difference between my approach to music and a musician’s approach to music is more than a difference of degree, and so am reluctant to say we share the same value. Given the many differing attitudes towards justice, it seems more apt to call it a political ploy about precedents than one objective standard all humans strive towards. I could keep going, but hopefully two examples is sufficient. Human values seem to be individual values, first and foremost.
And when we remove some human values- predation, cruelty, rape, domination- from the list because their time has passed, it is not clear to me why the others remain. If we alter ourselves so we no longer understand events as narratives (since that’s a motherlode of bias right there), will literature be a casualty of that improvement?
Agreed that individual humans have differing values. However I believe there’s more to say about human universal values than “we’re competing with one another”. Here are two pieces of evidence:
(1) Almost all human cultures have what we recognize as art. So far as I know, chimpanzee cultures do not. (Although a quick google search tells me that chimps who live in human cultures do create art.) So art, broadly defined, is universal; but individual humans have more specific tastes. I expect humans and chimpanzees have senses of justice (differing from individual to individual).
(2) Individuals can change their values through moral arguments and education. If I try, through moral argument, to convince someone of my idea of justice, it’s because I feel that my idea of justice has at least a somewhat universal appeal. And, with sufficient resources, you could become a musician and gain a richer appreciation of music. One could imagine an extrapolation process under which individuals’ values converge, at least some of the time.
However:
And when we remove some human values- predation, cruelty, rape, domination- from the list because their time has passed, it is not clear to me why the others remain.
I share the concern that I think you’re raising here: For all we know, moral progress might not be pointing towards any particular destination. More research needs to be done on the mechanics of morality.
And, with sufficient resources, you could become a musician and gain a richer appreciation of music.
This I’m not as sure about. I can become competent at playing an instrument and better at interpreting music, but I’m not sure I can rewrite my talents. If those are determined by a relatively inelastic part of my brain’s configuration, then it seems likely that the pathway to becoming a Beethoven simply does not exist for me.
A better example might be heroic compassion- people who put themselves at risk without thinking to save others. The consensus opinion is it’s probably at least somewhat genetic, and you either are a hero (in that narrow sense) or you aren’t. I could be roused to tears by tales of heroic compassion but not have the unthinking impulse to do it, and it’s not clear that if I don’t have it I could acquire it. There are other things that people do acquire- bodyguards learn how to operate after being shot, and soldiers learn how to stay active in combat situations- so it might be possible. But I think bounded potentials are more realistic than unbounded potentials.
I will clarify: My second link, “Thou Art Godshatter”, says that our values are causally rooted in evolution, which gave us our brains. CEV is supposed to extrapolate that chain of causality, in a certain way. My first link, “The Psychological Unity Of Humankind”, says that human brains are similar to each other. Chimpanzee brains are unlike human brains. There is no reason to expect human universal values to be identical to chimpanzee universal values. There is no reason to expect these species’ extrapolated values to be identical. That is what i am saying. Are you skeptical of this argument?
Art, for example.
The question you want to ask is, Would a CEV-extrapolated chimpanzee care about art? I don’t see why it should.
Sure there is- “maximize inclusive genetic fitness.”
Are you familiar with the theory that the human brain is essentially a peacock’s tail, and that language, creative endeavors, and so on were evolved primarily to attract mating partners?
It’s possible that a chimp that gets a lot smarter won’t start having more intellectual tastes, but the basic problem of “who do I have sex with, and how do I get them to agree?” is still around and it seems like they would try very similar methods to what we have.
That is an anthropomorphic representation of the ‘values’ of a gene allele. It is not the value of actual humans or chimpanzees.
Ah, it seems we have different ideas about what human values actually are.
Organisms are adaptation-executers, not fitness-maximizers. Art is a human terminal value. Maximizing inclusive genetic fitness is not. Even if the causal reason for us having this value were that artsy people get more sex, we would value art for its own sake.
I highly recommend the wiki article on the complexity of value and the articles linked from it.
Wait wait wait. Are we talking about human values, or human universal values? Those seem to me to be different concepts. It seems to me that what we have in common is that we’re competing with one another and what differs between humans is how we compete and what we seek to maximize.
I think the difference between my approach to music and a musician’s approach to music is more than a difference of degree, and so am reluctant to say we share the same value. Given the many differing attitudes towards justice, it seems more apt to call it a political ploy about precedents than one objective standard all humans strive towards. I could keep going, but hopefully two examples is sufficient. Human values seem to be individual values, first and foremost.
And when we remove some human values- predation, cruelty, rape, domination- from the list because their time has passed, it is not clear to me why the others remain. If we alter ourselves so we no longer understand events as narratives (since that’s a motherlode of bias right there), will literature be a casualty of that improvement?
Agreed that individual humans have differing values. However I believe there’s more to say about human universal values than “we’re competing with one another”. Here are two pieces of evidence:
(1) Almost all human cultures have what we recognize as art. So far as I know, chimpanzee cultures do not. (Although a quick google search tells me that chimps who live in human cultures do create art.) So art, broadly defined, is universal; but individual humans have more specific tastes. I expect humans and chimpanzees have senses of justice (differing from individual to individual).
(2) Individuals can change their values through moral arguments and education. If I try, through moral argument, to convince someone of my idea of justice, it’s because I feel that my idea of justice has at least a somewhat universal appeal. And, with sufficient resources, you could become a musician and gain a richer appreciation of music. One could imagine an extrapolation process under which individuals’ values converge, at least some of the time.
However:
I share the concern that I think you’re raising here: For all we know, moral progress might not be pointing towards any particular destination. More research needs to be done on the mechanics of morality.
Mostly agreed.
This I’m not as sure about. I can become competent at playing an instrument and better at interpreting music, but I’m not sure I can rewrite my talents. If those are determined by a relatively inelastic part of my brain’s configuration, then it seems likely that the pathway to becoming a Beethoven simply does not exist for me.
A better example might be heroic compassion- people who put themselves at risk without thinking to save others. The consensus opinion is it’s probably at least somewhat genetic, and you either are a hero (in that narrow sense) or you aren’t. I could be roused to tears by tales of heroic compassion but not have the unthinking impulse to do it, and it’s not clear that if I don’t have it I could acquire it. There are other things that people do acquire- bodyguards learn how to operate after being shot, and soldiers learn how to stay active in combat situations- so it might be possible. But I think bounded potentials are more realistic than unbounded potentials.