I think it is pretty clear that 4 is the least ugly.
Only because you’ve chosen the alternatives in order to favour it. “The melting pot”, as a description of America’s former waves of immigration, does not fit any of them.
“(4), oh, and with a little bit of (3)” is glossing over the problem, trying to save an unsalvageable idea by changing the words used to express it. Besides, a multiculturalist would give you stick for using the word “tolerated”, which is insufficiently accepting these days. Try “celebrated”, which suggests happy friendly things like colourful street parties and festivals, framing cultural differences as dressing-up games.
An alternative not on your list: immigrants aspiring towards assimilation into a single culture to which they give their allegiance, superseding their original one, of which nothing remains but the dressing-up aspects.
“(4), oh, and with a little bit of (3)” is glossing over the problem, trying to save an unsalvageable idea by changing the words used to express it.
Are you sure it is not a differnt idea? Are you saying anythign with the label “mutlicuralism” is unsalvageable, irrespective of what it is*?
I am saying that the concept described by the Wikipedia article I linked, which seems to me an accurate statement of what “multiculturalism” is generally used as a name for, is incoherent. Privately using the word differently doesn’t change that. “(4) with a side order of (3)” looks more like a rationalisation of the incoherence of the original concept than a decision to use the word to name something else.
ETA: On further thought, I might be being too inflexible. One might certainly present a model of how people of multiple cultures should coexist as “multiculturalism”, even if the model deviates substantially from the current one that goes by that name. One would, in effect, be presenting the model as a new interpretation of a deeper, unchanging fundamental concept, superior to the previous interpretation.
Certainly, that describes the history of Euler’s Theorem: mathematicians coming to a better understanding of the underlying concepts and finding better expressions of mathematical truths. But then, there is an unchanging objective reality in mathematics. In sociology, not so much. Instead, one has to adopt the methods of religion, presenting a new concept as merely a better understanding of the old.
An alternative not on your list: immigrants aspiring towards assimilation into a single culture to which they give their allegiance, superseding their original one, of which nothing remains but the dressing-up aspects.
In a different subthread*, the line of reasoning went that this does not positively “deal with” multiculturalism, but rather eliminates or prevents it. This seems to be part of what is happening in Japan; IIRC they deliberately filter immigrants for willingness to blend in, though they do so in more politically-correct terms.
* This one, though most of the replies that are most relevant will probably be hidden, since it appears Peterdjones is being heavily downvoted on this topic for some reason.
An alternative not on your list: immigrants aspiring towards assimilation into a single culture to which they give their allegiance, superseding their original one, of which nothing remains but the dressing-up aspects.
“let the problem solve itself”..
How do you have a policy of people just voluntarily doing what is most convenient? Can you eliminate crime that way?
ETA:
incoherent
All I can see is you stating that MC construed in a particular way has consequences you don’t like. That isn’t incoherence
I’m not familiar with the history of the migrations to the USA of the 19th and early 20th centuries beyond a quick look at Wikipedia, but from that, it looks like it pretty much did solve itself. There was friction. It passed.
I’m not familiar with the history of the migrations to the USA of the 19th and early 20th centuries beyond a quick look at Wikipedia, but from that, it looks like it pretty much did solve itself.
Weren’t severe restrictions on immigration, practically closed borders, instituted during the early 1900s?
It depends a bit on ethnicity. Quotas were in place that favored Northern and Western Europeans over Eastern and Southern (Mediterranean) Europeans. And anyone from Europe was favored over Japanese or Chinese—thus things like the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1880.
Those favored ethnicities were also those closest to the existing elites’ desired American culture, which kinda makes the point: they felt the more dissimilar ethnicities couldn’t be absorbed at their existing immigration rate.
it looks like it pretty much did solve itself. There was friction. It passed.
Bussing, voter registration drives and reservations are all quite artificial and politicaly driven. Even pledging allegiance is a mildish form of (3).
ETA: Incidentally, you have throughout been associating multiculturalism with immigration, but minority aborginal populations can be relevant as well. Among other things.
Can you eliminate crime that way?
What has that to do with this discussion?
It is a way of making the point that hoping that problems solve themselves is hardly ever a workable solution to anything.
All I can see is you stating that MC construed in a particular way has consequences you don’t like.
I don’t see where you see that. Rather, RichardKennaway seems to be saying that MC construed in the usual way is incoherent. I’m not seeing any mention of consequences.
Perhaps I should have made more explicit references back. The incoherence that I see is what I was talking about when I originally said this:
As far as I can see, “multiculturalism” is the belief that we should celebrate and encourage diversity because we are all really the same.
It’s that basic contradiction:
We are all different! Diversity! CLAP NOW!
We are all the same! Equality! CLAP NOW!
that this thread has been about: how do you support “the rich tapestry of human life and the desire amongst people to express their own identity in the manner they see fit” without prohibiting yourself from criticising abhorrent cultural customs like FGM? It’s that contradiction that gives rise to the contortions around the subject of FGM that I earlier quoted from the Wikipedia page.
how do you support “the rich tapestry of human life and the desire amongst people to express their own identity in the manner they see fit” without prohibiting yourself from criticising abhorrent cultural customs like FGM?
One common approach is called “liberalism”. It ascribes certain notional boundaries — called “rights” — to each individual; and asserts that each individual may do as they choose to express their identity, so long as they do not transgress the notional boundaries of another person. This places certain limits on the ways each person can “express their own identity in the manner they see fit” in order to define a space in which all others can do so too.
It’s that basic contradiction: We are all different! Diversity! CLAP NOW! We are all the same! Equality! CLAP NOW!
The conflict between individuality and cultural consistency is practically as old as civilization itself. Most ideologies throughout history included ad hoc, unprincipled, case-by-case solutions to those problems.
Why do you think that multi-culturalism is more inconsistent and unprincipled than any other historical solution to the individuality / group identity problem?
The conflict between individuality and cultural consistency is practically as old as civilization itself. Most ideologies throughout history included ad hoc, unprincipled, case-by-case solutions to those problems.
Why do you think that multi-culturalism is more inconsistent and unprincipled than any other historical solution to the individuality / group identity problem?
The problem is not that it is inconsistent and unprincipled, but that it is inconsistent and principled.
Prizing equal rights obviously isn’t in tension with prizing diverse human exercise of those rights. You haven’t cited a contradiction. However, we could use your argument to spin off a real tension:
Similarity (e.g., our common humanity, our common interests and heritage and concerns) is valuable. But dissimilarity (e.g., cultural and individual diversity) is also valuable. So ‘value’ seems to be trivial.
Response: What we really value is not ‘being the same’ or ‘being different’ in a vacuum. What we value is (a) being similar or different in particular respects, and (b) having a certain ratio of similarity to difference. The English language just isn’t sophisticated enough to allow for easy slogans of either of those forms. We can’t easily signal that we value diversity, but in specific areas and not in all areas; likewise for valuing some similarities, but not all. And we can’t easily signal that we value a certain mixture of sameness and differentness, because too much of one or the other would make life less worth living. They seem like platitudes, but they aren’t false, and they’re worth taking seriously if only because they stand in for so many specific attributes that we need to take very seriously. It’s just important to see past the surface structure of some virtues.
“Equality” never means identicality in the political context. It instead means equal value or equal worth.
That’s what we’re talking about. Requiring a religious day of rest every Friday, or every Saturday, or every Sunday, are indeed practices of equal worth. FGM is not of equal worth with those.
It means people are of equal worth. In liberal democracies you don’t have to show that any kind of behaviour is of worth before you do it, you have to show that is does no harm and has consent.
Sayign he doesn’t like FGM doens’t demosntrate incoherence.
I don’t know who would think that would demonstrate incoherence. And I don’t notice RichardKennaway pointing out that he doesn’t like FGM, so that seems totally irrelevant.
He did say he doens’t like FGM and the only reason for linking that to the charge of incoherence is that it is the only criciticsm he offered. Of course, the charge of incoherence might have unstated motivations, or be his way of saying “I just don;t like it”, etc, etc.
Ah, different thread, thanks. Yes, there doesn’t seem to be anything in that comment where RichardKennaway connects FGM with incoherence. You seem to be jumping to conclusions.
Only because you’ve chosen the alternatives in order to favour it. “The melting pot”, as a description of America’s former waves of immigration, does not fit any of them.
“(4), oh, and with a little bit of (3)” is glossing over the problem, trying to save an unsalvageable idea by changing the words used to express it. Besides, a multiculturalist would give you stick for using the word “tolerated”, which is insufficiently accepting these days. Try “celebrated”, which suggests happy friendly things like colourful street parties and festivals, framing cultural differences as dressing-up games.
So what does it fit? (2) was tried at one time—Jim Crow. The US has not has a sngle consistent approach.
Are you sure it is not a differnt idea? Are you saying anythign with the label “mutlicuralism” is unsalvageable, irrespective of what it is*?
Some subtypes of MC-ist might. But werent you just saying that 1-4 are not exhaustive?
An alternative not on your list: immigrants aspiring towards assimilation into a single culture to which they give their allegiance, superseding their original one, of which nothing remains but the dressing-up aspects.
I am saying that the concept described by the Wikipedia article I linked, which seems to me an accurate statement of what “multiculturalism” is generally used as a name for, is incoherent. Privately using the word differently doesn’t change that. “(4) with a side order of (3)” looks more like a rationalisation of the incoherence of the original concept than a decision to use the word to name something else.
ETA: On further thought, I might be being too inflexible. One might certainly present a model of how people of multiple cultures should coexist as “multiculturalism”, even if the model deviates substantially from the current one that goes by that name. One would, in effect, be presenting the model as a new interpretation of a deeper, unchanging fundamental concept, superior to the previous interpretation.
Certainly, that describes the history of Euler’s Theorem: mathematicians coming to a better understanding of the underlying concepts and finding better expressions of mathematical truths. But then, there is an unchanging objective reality in mathematics. In sociology, not so much. Instead, one has to adopt the methods of religion, presenting a new concept as merely a better understanding of the old.
In a different subthread*, the line of reasoning went that this does not positively “deal with” multiculturalism, but rather eliminates or prevents it. This seems to be part of what is happening in Japan; IIRC they deliberately filter immigrants for willingness to blend in, though they do so in more politically-correct terms.
* This one, though most of the replies that are most relevant will probably be hidden, since it appears Peterdjones is being heavily downvoted on this topic for some reason.
“let the problem solve itself”..
How do you have a policy of people just voluntarily doing what is most convenient? Can you eliminate crime that way?
ETA:
All I can see is you stating that MC construed in a particular way has consequences you don’t like. That isn’t incoherence
I’m not familiar with the history of the migrations to the USA of the 19th and early 20th centuries beyond a quick look at Wikipedia, but from that, it looks like it pretty much did solve itself. There was friction. It passed.
What has that to do with this discussion?
Weren’t severe restrictions on immigration, practically closed borders, instituted during the early 1900s?
It depends a bit on ethnicity. Quotas were in place that favored Northern and Western Europeans over Eastern and Southern (Mediterranean) Europeans. And anyone from Europe was favored over Japanese or Chinese—thus things like the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1880.
Those favored ethnicities were also those closest to the existing elites’ desired American culture, which kinda makes the point: they felt the more dissimilar ethnicities couldn’t be absorbed at their existing immigration rate.
Bussing, voter registration drives and reservations are all quite artificial and politicaly driven. Even pledging allegiance is a mildish form of (3).
ETA: Incidentally, you have throughout been associating multiculturalism with immigration, but minority aborginal populations can be relevant as well. Among other things.
It is a way of making the point that hoping that problems solve themselves is hardly ever a workable solution to anything.
You don’t actually need one—people tend to do what’s most convenient on their own. An attempt at policy tends to just get in the way.
Sadly, no; crime is often what is most convenient.
People tend to do wha’t convenient for them, left on their own. Hence crime.
Yes, and assimilation is frequently most convenient.
Given sufficient opportunity, yes.
I don’t see where you see that. Rather, RichardKennaway seems to be saying that MC construed in the usual way is incoherent. I’m not seeing any mention of consequences.
Yes, he’s said that it is incoherent. He hasn’t said why. Sayign he doesn’t like FGM doens’t demosntrate incoherence.
Perhaps I should have made more explicit references back. The incoherence that I see is what I was talking about when I originally said this:
It’s that basic contradiction:
We are all different! Diversity! CLAP NOW!
We are all the same! Equality! CLAP NOW!
that this thread has been about: how do you support “the rich tapestry of human life and the desire amongst people to express their own identity in the manner they see fit” without prohibiting yourself from criticising abhorrent cultural customs like FGM? It’s that contradiction that gives rise to the contortions around the subject of FGM that I earlier quoted from the Wikipedia page.
One common approach is called “liberalism”. It ascribes certain notional boundaries — called “rights” — to each individual; and asserts that each individual may do as they choose to express their identity, so long as they do not transgress the notional boundaries of another person. This places certain limits on the ways each person can “express their own identity in the manner they see fit” in order to define a space in which all others can do so too.
The conflict between individuality and cultural consistency is practically as old as civilization itself. Most ideologies throughout history included ad hoc, unprincipled, case-by-case solutions to those problems.
Why do you think that multi-culturalism is more inconsistent and unprincipled than any other historical solution to the individuality / group identity problem?
The problem is not that it is inconsistent and unprincipled, but that it is inconsistent and principled.
But it isn’t inconsistent.
Prizing equal rights obviously isn’t in tension with prizing diverse human exercise of those rights. You haven’t cited a contradiction. However, we could use your argument to spin off a real tension:
Similarity (e.g., our common humanity, our common interests and heritage and concerns) is valuable. But dissimilarity (e.g., cultural and individual diversity) is also valuable. So ‘value’ seems to be trivial.
Response: What we really value is not ‘being the same’ or ‘being different’ in a vacuum. What we value is (a) being similar or different in particular respects, and (b) having a certain ratio of similarity to difference. The English language just isn’t sophisticated enough to allow for easy slogans of either of those forms. We can’t easily signal that we value diversity, but in specific areas and not in all areas; likewise for valuing some similarities, but not all. And we can’t easily signal that we value a certain mixture of sameness and differentness, because too much of one or the other would make life less worth living. They seem like platitudes, but they aren’t false, and they’re worth taking seriously if only because they stand in for so many specific attributes that we need to take very seriously. It’s just important to see past the surface structure of some virtues.
Thank you for clarifying. That really was unclear.
“Equality” never means identicality in the political context. It instead means equal value or equal worth.
That’s what we’re talking about. Requiring a religious day of rest every Friday, or every Saturday, or every Sunday, are indeed practices of equal worth. FGM is not of equal worth with those.
It means people are of equal worth. In liberal democracies you don’t have to show that any kind of behaviour is of worth before you do it, you have to show that is does no harm and has consent.
That works until you start getting into details of exactly what constitutes “harm” and “consent”.
In the overwhelming majority of the cases the distinction is clear-cut; it’s just that the ones where it isn’t tend to be much more salient.
And those are precisely the type of cases that gradually cause attitudes to change.
I don’t know who would think that would demonstrate incoherence. And I don’t notice RichardKennaway pointing out that he doesn’t like FGM, so that seems totally irrelevant.
Ah, different thread, thanks. Yes, there doesn’t seem to be anything in that comment where RichardKennaway connects FGM with incoherence. You seem to be jumping to conclusions.