Perhaps an aesthetic preference isn’t a problem (obviously there are certain physical traits that are attractive in one sex and not another, which does lend itself to certain aesthetic preferences). Note that I used the word “personality traits”—some division of other traits is inevitable. Things that upset me with the current state of affairs are where one boy fights with another and it is dismissed as boys being boys, while any other combination of genders would probably result in disciplinary action. Or how the general social trends (in Western cultures, at least) think that women wearing suits is commendable and becoming ordinary, but a man in a dress is practically lynched.
Potential utility produced, for your company or project. I think I phrased this one a little wonkily earlier—you’re right, under the proofs I layed out, if all you know about John and Jane are their genders, then of course the Bayesian thing to do is assume John will be better at math. What I mean is more that, if you do know more about John and Jane, having had an interview or read a resume, the assumption that they necessarily reflect the averages of their gender is like not considering whether a woman’s positive mammogram could be false. For an extreme example, the majority of homocides in many countries are committed by men. Should the employer therefore assume that Jane is less likely than John to commit such a crime, even if she has a criminal record?
I don’t see why having an ungendered default is so difficult, besides for the linguistic dance associated with it in our language (and several others, but far from all of them), which is probably not going to be a problem for many more generations due to the increasing use of “they” as a singular pronoun. For instance, having a raceless or creedless default has proven not to be that hard, even if members of different races or creeds would react differently in such a situation. If one of the things I’m talking about actually happens in a cishuman lifetime, my bet would go on this one. Now, in situations where you need a more specific everyman, who goes to church every Sunday and has two children and a dog, there might be more use in a gendered, race-bearing, creed-bearing individual.
Maybe I should just go back and say “where virtually perfect acknowledges that there are some immutable differences between the sexes but that all others with detrimental effect have been eradicated”.
This is why it surprises me so much that the levels of communication post had so little focus on the level of values or potential misunderstandings that can occur on the level of facts due to the ambiguity of language. The value that I am trying to express, and which I assume that you are as well or something close to it, is that men and women should be treated equally, but completely equal treatment would be impractical and not equal in the terms of benefit conferred. (For example, growth of breasts in men should be taken as a health concern, not a sign of attractiveness.) So we are forced to add specifics to our definitions that make them less clear.
Unless you still think something is wrong or missing in my definition to the point that we’re talking about significantly different things, I would appreciate it if we moved on from this aspect of the issue.
As I implicitly stated, I don’t think that personality traits for the most part should be considered attractive in one sex and not another. There are some physical traits that are arbitrary, like long hair, with attractiveness dimorphism, but I’m talking about physical traits that distinctly vary in whether they would be healthy between males and females. Like having pronounced mammary glands. That’s obviously not a fertility marker in both sexes.
Are you sure this doesn’t apply for personality traits as well?
Going into evopsych is so tempting right now, but the “just so story” practically writes itself.
Here’s an alternative:
Since major personality traits are associated with hormones produced by parts of our body produced through embryogenisis based on our genes and the traits of our mother’s womb. And since our reproductive organs are also so, it would be very surprising to find there was no correlation between personality traits and fertility/ virility, and it would be a major blow against your argument if it turned out to be one that is both strong and positive.
Perhaps an aesthetic preference isn’t a problem (obviously there are certain physical traits that are attractive in one sex and not another, which does lend itself to certain aesthetic preferences). Note that I used the word “personality traits”—some division of other traits is inevitable. Things that upset me with the current state of affairs are where one boy fights with another and it is dismissed as boys being boys, while any other combination of genders would probably result in disciplinary action. Or how the general social trends (in Western cultures, at least) think that women wearing suits is commendable and becoming ordinary, but a man in a dress is practically lynched.
Potential utility produced, for your company or project. I think I phrased this one a little wonkily earlier—you’re right, under the proofs I layed out, if all you know about John and Jane are their genders, then of course the Bayesian thing to do is assume John will be better at math. What I mean is more that, if you do know more about John and Jane, having had an interview or read a resume, the assumption that they necessarily reflect the averages of their gender is like not considering whether a woman’s positive mammogram could be false. For an extreme example, the majority of homocides in many countries are committed by men. Should the employer therefore assume that Jane is less likely than John to commit such a crime, even if she has a criminal record?
I don’t see why having an ungendered default is so difficult, besides for the linguistic dance associated with it in our language (and several others, but far from all of them), which is probably not going to be a problem for many more generations due to the increasing use of “they” as a singular pronoun. For instance, having a raceless or creedless default has proven not to be that hard, even if members of different races or creeds would react differently in such a situation. If one of the things I’m talking about actually happens in a cishuman lifetime, my bet would go on this one. Now, in situations where you need a more specific everyman, who goes to church every Sunday and has two children and a dog, there might be more use in a gendered, race-bearing, creed-bearing individual.
Maybe I should just go back and say “where virtually perfect acknowledges that there are some immutable differences between the sexes but that all others with detrimental effect have been eradicated”.
This is why it surprises me so much that the levels of communication post had so little focus on the level of values or potential misunderstandings that can occur on the level of facts due to the ambiguity of language. The value that I am trying to express, and which I assume that you are as well or something close to it, is that men and women should be treated equally, but completely equal treatment would be impractical and not equal in the terms of benefit conferred. (For example, growth of breasts in men should be taken as a health concern, not a sign of attractiveness.) So we are forced to add specifics to our definitions that make them less clear.
Unless you still think something is wrong or missing in my definition to the point that we’re talking about significantly different things, I would appreciate it if we moved on from this aspect of the issue.
Some personality traits are considered attractive in one sex and not another.
As I implicitly stated, I don’t think that personality traits for the most part should be considered attractive in one sex and not another. There are some physical traits that are arbitrary, like long hair, with attractiveness dimorphism, but I’m talking about physical traits that distinctly vary in whether they would be healthy between males and females. Like having pronounced mammary glands. That’s obviously not a fertility marker in both sexes.
Are you sure this doesn’t apply for personality traits as well?
Going into evopsych is so tempting right now, but the “just so story” practically writes itself.
Here’s an alternative:
Since major personality traits are associated with hormones produced by parts of our body produced through embryogenisis based on our genes and the traits of our mother’s womb. And since our reproductive organs are also so, it would be very surprising to find there was no correlation between personality traits and fertility/ virility, and it would be a major blow against your argument if it turned out to be one that is both strong and positive.