I often get the sense, lurking on LW, that I am more emotionally sensitive than is the norm here, and as a result I feel like bit of an outsider.
There are a couple of things to keep in mind here. Discourse on Less Wrong is comparatively high quality and high barrier of entry. That and the topics that are usually discussed here leave little room for sensitive, emotional content. (Not that I think such content has no place here, but because of “reasons” it doesn’t show up that often.) If you take a look at communities just outside of Less Wrong (in my case that’s the tumblr rationalists and /r/HPMOR) you’ll notice more emotions being acknowledged and shared with the group.
A good system of ritual should have the idea of social tiers/roles baked into it.
I’m not sure that’s true. As Raemon says, you need someone facilitating the whole thing, but you don’t necessarily need an “elite group”, “regular group” and “outsider group” for a good ritual. The Winter Solstice Ritual Raemon made doesn’t have that (if I’m getting the pdf right) and I consider that a successful ritual. Some rituals at my local scout group are also without social tiers or roles.
I don’t necessarily think that Initiations Rituals or rituals with that social hierarchy are a bad idea. I just disagree that every group and ritual needs that. I think that (currently) the fact that it’s easy to become a member of the “Aspiring Rationalists” is a good thing. Maybe in the future (when this subculture has grown a lot) and insider/outsider designation might be necessary.
Point taken, regarding the reasons for the low-emotional-validation style of discourse here. I wouldn’t aim to change it, it just rules out engaging in it much for me, because of my own sensitivity/predisposition. Maybe those other communities are a better fit.
I think one intuition I have, though, is that part of the reason for the style of discourse here is that many of the people this kind of thing appeals to are not in the habit of assessing the emotions that come up naturally during discussion, for themselves or others. I say this because the degree to which I pay attention to that kind of thing has changed dramatically over the years, and I wouldn’t be surprised to find those questions (“How am I feeling after reading this response? Do I need to take a break?”, “How will this make the other person feel?”) don’t occur to lots of people. For a long time I operated under the assumption that reading someone’s response to my post could not possibly put me in a difficult spot.
Onto the point about whether a ritual needs roles/tiers. I don’t necessarily think it does either. For a thing like the retreat being proposed by Raemon, there will likely be a lot of self-selection going on and it may render the idea of more vs less outsiders moot. And you’re right that an initiation ritual might be a high barrier to entry, which could be bad.
I do think, though, that having an initiation ritual, and a sense of more in vs out, can significantly enhance an individual’s experience in a ritual. It can help turn a gathering into a memorable story with lasting power after the fact. And that is something any ritual should be shooting for.
The basic outline of the story goes like this:
First I was my regular self, and I came to the group, and I was not part of the group.
Then the group had me begin the rites of passage, and I was no longer my regular self, nor was I one of the group.
Then I completed the rites of passage, and I was recognized as part of the group, and my identity was updated for the better.
This seems like a Good Thing To Have to me. There are plenty of other Good Things too, and this particular one is not needed, but it would be good to have it.
First I was my regular self, and I came to the group, and I was not part of the group.
Then the group had me begin the rites of passage, and I was no longer my regular self, nor was I one of the group.
Then I completed the rites of passage, and I was recognized as part of the group, and my identity was updated for the better.
Good way of putting it. I do agree that this can be valuable (and something I should think about specifically when planning the Retreat). I’m not sure if lack-of-it was the issue in your ritual (will comment on that in the other thread)
There are a couple of things to keep in mind here. Discourse on Less Wrong is comparatively high quality and high barrier of entry. That and the topics that are usually discussed here leave little room for sensitive, emotional content. (Not that I think such content has no place here, but because of “reasons” it doesn’t show up that often.) If you take a look at communities just outside of Less Wrong (in my case that’s the tumblr rationalists and /r/HPMOR) you’ll notice more emotions being acknowledged and shared with the group.
I’m not sure that’s true. As Raemon says, you need someone facilitating the whole thing, but you don’t necessarily need an “elite group”, “regular group” and “outsider group” for a good ritual. The Winter Solstice Ritual Raemon made doesn’t have that (if I’m getting the pdf right) and I consider that a successful ritual. Some rituals at my local scout group are also without social tiers or roles.
I don’t necessarily think that Initiations Rituals or rituals with that social hierarchy are a bad idea. I just disagree that every group and ritual needs that. I think that (currently) the fact that it’s easy to become a member of the “Aspiring Rationalists” is a good thing. Maybe in the future (when this subculture has grown a lot) and insider/outsider designation might be necessary.
Point taken, regarding the reasons for the low-emotional-validation style of discourse here. I wouldn’t aim to change it, it just rules out engaging in it much for me, because of my own sensitivity/predisposition. Maybe those other communities are a better fit.
I think one intuition I have, though, is that part of the reason for the style of discourse here is that many of the people this kind of thing appeals to are not in the habit of assessing the emotions that come up naturally during discussion, for themselves or others. I say this because the degree to which I pay attention to that kind of thing has changed dramatically over the years, and I wouldn’t be surprised to find those questions (“How am I feeling after reading this response? Do I need to take a break?”, “How will this make the other person feel?”) don’t occur to lots of people. For a long time I operated under the assumption that reading someone’s response to my post could not possibly put me in a difficult spot.
Onto the point about whether a ritual needs roles/tiers. I don’t necessarily think it does either. For a thing like the retreat being proposed by Raemon, there will likely be a lot of self-selection going on and it may render the idea of more vs less outsiders moot. And you’re right that an initiation ritual might be a high barrier to entry, which could be bad.
I do think, though, that having an initiation ritual, and a sense of more in vs out, can significantly enhance an individual’s experience in a ritual. It can help turn a gathering into a memorable story with lasting power after the fact. And that is something any ritual should be shooting for.
The basic outline of the story goes like this:
First I was my regular self, and I came to the group, and I was not part of the group.
Then the group had me begin the rites of passage, and I was no longer my regular self, nor was I one of the group.
Then I completed the rites of passage, and I was recognized as part of the group, and my identity was updated for the better.
This seems like a Good Thing To Have to me. There are plenty of other Good Things too, and this particular one is not needed, but it would be good to have it.
Good way of putting it. I do agree that this can be valuable (and something I should think about specifically when planning the Retreat). I’m not sure if lack-of-it was the issue in your ritual (will comment on that in the other thread)