saying all pain causes permanent psychological damage
Not all pain, but certainly that’s a factor.
we should still be indifferent between killing a person quickly, or torturing em for six hours and then killing em
I don’t see how that follows. Killing someone quickly leaves them no time to contemplate the fact that all their plans and desires have come to a dead end; what is awful about torture is the knowledge of one’s plans and desires being thwarted—even more awful than not allowing that person to carry out their plans and fulfill their desires. (Also, in many cases other people have plans and desires for us: they prefer us to be alive and well, to enjoy pleasure and avoid pain, and so on. Torture thwarts those desires as well, over and above killing.)
Note that you’re saying that not only is the thwarting of someone’s plans a disvalue, having them contemplate the thwarting is an additional disvalue.
Also, since being tortured makes contemplation harder, you should prefer torturing someone for six hours and them killing them to letting them contemplate their imminent death in comfort for six hours and then killing them.
you should prefer torturing someone for six hours and them killing them to letting them contemplate their imminent death in comfort for six hours and then killing them
When you’re being tortured you have no choice but to attend to the pain: you are not cognitively free to contemplate anything other than your own destruction. In comfort you could at least aim for a more pleasant state of mind—you can make your own plans for those six hours instead of following the torturer’s, and if you have the strength, refuse to contemplate your own death.
Also, in many cases other people have plans and desires for us: they prefer us to be alive and well, to enjoy pleasure and avoid pain, and so on.
But why do other people prefer for you to avoid pain, if pain is not a moral disvalue? And what exactly do they mean by “pain” (which is what the post asked in the first place)?
I liked this comment on Alicorn’s post: “(pain) makes you want to pull away; it’s a flinch, abstracted”. What seems to matter about pain, when I think about scenarios such as the one you proposed, is its permanent aversive effect, something not present in simulated pain.
Trying to frame this in terms of anticipated experiences, the question I would want to ask about the posited ECP is, “if I meet this ECP again will they hold it against me that I failed to press the button, because of negative reinforcement in our first encounter”. The way you’ve framed the thought experiment suggests that they won’t have a memory of the encounter, in fact that I’m not even likely to think of them as an entity I might “meet”.
Not all pain, but certainly that’s a factor.
I don’t see how that follows. Killing someone quickly leaves them no time to contemplate the fact that all their plans and desires have come to a dead end; what is awful about torture is the knowledge of one’s plans and desires being thwarted—even more awful than not allowing that person to carry out their plans and fulfill their desires. (Also, in many cases other people have plans and desires for us: they prefer us to be alive and well, to enjoy pleasure and avoid pain, and so on. Torture thwarts those desires as well, over and above killing.)
I don’t think that this is as awful as the degree to which torture hurts.
Note that you’re saying that not only is the thwarting of someone’s plans a disvalue, having them contemplate the thwarting is an additional disvalue.
Also, since being tortured makes contemplation harder, you should prefer torturing someone for six hours and them killing them to letting them contemplate their imminent death in comfort for six hours and then killing them.
When you’re being tortured you have no choice but to attend to the pain: you are not cognitively free to contemplate anything other than your own destruction. In comfort you could at least aim for a more pleasant state of mind—you can make your own plans for those six hours instead of following the torturer’s, and if you have the strength, refuse to contemplate your own death.
But why do other people prefer for you to avoid pain, if pain is not a moral disvalue? And what exactly do they mean by “pain” (which is what the post asked in the first place)?
I liked this comment on Alicorn’s post: “(pain) makes you want to pull away; it’s a flinch, abstracted”. What seems to matter about pain, when I think about scenarios such as the one you proposed, is its permanent aversive effect, something not present in simulated pain.
Trying to frame this in terms of anticipated experiences, the question I would want to ask about the posited ECP is, “if I meet this ECP again will they hold it against me that I failed to press the button, because of negative reinforcement in our first encounter”. The way you’ve framed the thought experiment suggests that they won’t have a memory of the encounter, in fact that I’m not even likely to think of them as an entity I might “meet”.