Lots to comment on here. That last paragraph certainly merits some comment.
Yes, most people are almost entirely inconsistent about the morality they profess to believe. At least in the “civilized world”. I get the impression of more widespread fervent and sincere beliefs in the less civilized world.
Do Christians in the US really believe all their rather wacky professions of faith? Or even the most tame, basic professions of faith? Very very few, I think. There are Christians who really believe, and I tend to like them, despite the wackiness. Honest, consistent, earnest people appeal to me.
For the great mass, I increasingly think they just make talking noises appropriate to their tribe. It’s not that they lie, it’s more that correspondence to reality is so far down the list of motivations, or even evaluations, that it’s not relevant to the noises that come from their mouths.
It’s the great mass of people who seem to instinctively say whatever is socially advantageous in their tribe that give be the heebie jeebies. They are completely alien—which, given the relative numbers, means I am totally alien. A stranger in a strange land.
Isn’t it better to classify people in a way that better matches the actual distribution of beliefs and attitudes
Yes.
and say that someone is a utilitarian if they answer “what’s morally better?” questions by some kind of consideration of overall utility?
That’s what the tribesman do, for the purposes of tribesman.
For the purposes of judging an ideology, which I had done, my judgment is based on what it would mean for people to actually adhere to the ideology, and not just make noises that they believe it.
For a number of purposes, knowing who has allegiance to what tribe matters. I don’t find the utilitarian tribe here morally abominable, but I do think preaching the faith they do is harmful, and I wish they’d knock it off, as I wish people in general would stop preaching all the various obscenities that they preach.
Then again, what does a Martian know about what is harmful for Earthlings?
Other issues.
“Doing X will lead to a better world, but I care about my own happiness as well as about optimizing the world so I’m going to do Y instead”
Not utilitarianism. In utilitarianism, your happiness and welfare counts 1 seven billionth—that’s not even a rounding error, it’s undetectable.
Imagine, if you will, someone who would by admired by the Buddhist or Christian moral traditions, who is filled with love and compassion for everyone s/he sees and works hard to make their lives better even at great personal cost.
I’ve always found statements like this tremendously contradictory.
If he’s really so filled with love for other people, why is helping them “a great personal cost”, and not a great personal benefit? Me, I enjoy being useful, particularly to people I care about. Helping them is an opportunity, not a cost.
There is no inconsistency in saying “The gods have commanded that we do X, but I am going to do Y instead because it’s easier”.
What is there, for a supposed believer, is disobedience and sin. You seem tremendously cavalier about violating your professed moral code. Which, given your code, is probably a good thing, though my preference is for people to profess a decent faith that they actually follow, rather than an abomination that they don’t.
I’m repeating myself here, but: I think you are mixing up two things: utilitarianism versus other systems, and singleminded caring about nothing but morality versus not. It is the latter that generates attitudes and behaviour and outcomes that you find so horrible, not the former.
You are of course at liberty to say that the term “utilitarian” should only be applied to a person who not only holds that the way to answer moral questions is by something like comparison of net utility, but also acts consistently and singlemindedly to maximize net utility as they conceive it. The consequence, of course, will be that in your view there are no utilitarians and that anyone who identifies as a utilitarian is a hypocrite. Personally, I find that just as unhelpful a use of language as some theists’ insistence that “atheist” can only mean someone who is absolutely 100% certain, without the tiniest room for doubt, that there is no god. It feels like a tactical definition whose main purpose is to put other people in the wrong even before any substantive discussion of their opinions and actions begins.
why is helping them “a great personal cost”, and not a great personal benefit?
It’s both. (Just as a literal purchase may be both at great cost, and of great benefit.) Which is one reason why, if this person—or someone who feels and acts similarly on the basis of utilitarian rather than religious ethics—acts in this way because they genuinely think it’s the best thing to do, then I don’t think it’s appropriate to complain about how grotesquely subjugated they are.
Lots to comment on here. That last paragraph certainly merits some comment.
Yes, most people are almost entirely inconsistent about the morality they profess to believe. At least in the “civilized world”. I get the impression of more widespread fervent and sincere beliefs in the less civilized world.
Do Christians in the US really believe all their rather wacky professions of faith? Or even the most tame, basic professions of faith? Very very few, I think. There are Christians who really believe, and I tend to like them, despite the wackiness. Honest, consistent, earnest people appeal to me.
For the great mass, I increasingly think they just make talking noises appropriate to their tribe. It’s not that they lie, it’s more that correspondence to reality is so far down the list of motivations, or even evaluations, that it’s not relevant to the noises that come from their mouths.
It’s the great mass of people who seem to instinctively say whatever is socially advantageous in their tribe that give be the heebie jeebies. They are completely alien—which, given the relative numbers, means I am totally alien. A stranger in a strange land.
Yes.
That’s what the tribesman do, for the purposes of tribesman.
For the purposes of judging an ideology, which I had done, my judgment is based on what it would mean for people to actually adhere to the ideology, and not just make noises that they believe it.
For a number of purposes, knowing who has allegiance to what tribe matters. I don’t find the utilitarian tribe here morally abominable, but I do think preaching the faith they do is harmful, and I wish they’d knock it off, as I wish people in general would stop preaching all the various obscenities that they preach.
Then again, what does a Martian know about what is harmful for Earthlings?
Other issues.
Not utilitarianism. In utilitarianism, your happiness and welfare counts 1 seven billionth—that’s not even a rounding error, it’s undetectable.
I’ve always found statements like this tremendously contradictory.
If he’s really so filled with love for other people, why is helping them “a great personal cost”, and not a great personal benefit? Me, I enjoy being useful, particularly to people I care about. Helping them is an opportunity, not a cost.
What is there, for a supposed believer, is disobedience and sin. You seem tremendously cavalier about violating your professed moral code. Which, given your code, is probably a good thing, though my preference is for people to profess a decent faith that they actually follow, rather than an abomination that they don’t.
I’m repeating myself here, but: I think you are mixing up two things: utilitarianism versus other systems, and singleminded caring about nothing but morality versus not. It is the latter that generates attitudes and behaviour and outcomes that you find so horrible, not the former.
You are of course at liberty to say that the term “utilitarian” should only be applied to a person who not only holds that the way to answer moral questions is by something like comparison of net utility, but also acts consistently and singlemindedly to maximize net utility as they conceive it. The consequence, of course, will be that in your view there are no utilitarians and that anyone who identifies as a utilitarian is a hypocrite. Personally, I find that just as unhelpful a use of language as some theists’ insistence that “atheist” can only mean someone who is absolutely 100% certain, without the tiniest room for doubt, that there is no god. It feels like a tactical definition whose main purpose is to put other people in the wrong even before any substantive discussion of their opinions and actions begins.
It’s both. (Just as a literal purchase may be both at great cost, and of great benefit.) Which is one reason why, if this person—or someone who feels and acts similarly on the basis of utilitarian rather than religious ethics—acts in this way because they genuinely think it’s the best thing to do, then I don’t think it’s appropriate to complain about how grotesquely subjugated they are.
What do you believe my code to be, and why?