“such-and-such a country allows quite a lot of immigration, and there is one city there that has a lot of immigrants and isn’t a very nice place” seems a very very very weak argument against liberal immigration policies.
On the other hand, “such-and-such a country allows quite a lot of immigration, and the niceness of a city inversely correlates with the number of immigrants there” is a stronger argument. Especially if I can get an even stronger correlation by conditioning on types of immigrants.
It’s far from clear that the central premise is correct. (Cambridge has a lot of immigrants and I think it’s very nice. I’m told Stoke-on-Trent is pretty rubbish but it has few immigrants. Two cherry-picked cases don’t tell you much about correlation but, hey, that’s one more case than bramflakes offered.)
The differential effects of immigration within a country might look different from the overall effects on the country as a whole. (Toy model, not intended to be a description of how things actually are: suppose some immigrant group produces disproportionate numbers of petty criminals and brilliant business executives; then maybe areas with more of that group will have more crime but by the magic of income tax the high earnings of the geniuses will make everyone better off.)
For some people—I am not claiming you are one—the very fact that a place has more immigrants (or more of particular “types of immigrants”, nudge nudge wink wink) makes it less nice. Those who happen not to feel that way may have a different view of the correlation between niceness and immigration from those who do. To take a special case, the immigrants themselves probably don’t feel that way, and for some who favour liberal immigration policies the benefit to the immigrants is actually an important part of the point.
To take a special case, the immigrants themselves probably don’t feel that way,
Actually they probably do. That’s why they immigrated in the first place.
and for some who favour liberal immigration policies the benefit to the immigrants is actually an important part of the point.
Well it’s remarkable how strong a correlation there is between one’s support for immigration and how strong a bubble one has around oneself to protect oneself from them. Look how many of the most prominent immigration advocates live in gated communities.
I can think of reasons why someone might migrate from country A to country B other than preferring country B’s people to country A’s.
[EDITED to add: Maybe I should give some examples, in case they really aren’t obvious. Country B might have: a better political system, less war, more money, better treatment for some group one’s part of (women, gay people, intellectuals, Sikhs, …), less disease, nicer climate, lower taxes, better public services, better jobs, better educational opportunities. Some of those might in some cases be because country A’s people are somehow better, but they needn’t be, and even if in fact Uzbekistan has lower taxes because it has fewer Swedes and Swedes have a genetic predisposition to raise taxes, someone migrating from Sweden to Uzbekistan for lower taxes needn’t be aware of that and needn’t have any preference for not being around Swedes.]
how strong a correlation there is [...] how many of the most prominent immigration advocates live in gated communities.
I am interested: How strong, and how many? Do you have figures?
(And how does it compare with how many of the most prominent advocates of anything you care to mention live in gated communities? The most prominent people in any given group are more likely to be rich, and richer people more often live in gated communities.)
In any case, assuming for the sake of argument that there is indeed a positive correlation between being “protected” from immigrants and supporting letting more of them in: I don’t understand how your reply is responsive to what I wrote. It seems exactly parallel to this: “Many people advocate prison reform for the sake of the prisoners.” “Oh year? Well, a lot of those people prefer to live in places with lower crime rates.” Which is true enough, but hardly relevant. There’s no inconsistency between wanting some group of people to be better off, and having a personal preference for not living near a lot of them.
Rich people are more likely to advocate open borders.
Again, I’d be interested in the statistics. (That isn’t a coded way of saying I think you’re wrong, by the way. But I’d be interested to know how big the differences are, whether it depends on what you mean by “rich”, etc.)
Mark Zuckerberg [...] Bryan Caplan
I’m not sure why this is relevant. I’m guessing that both of those people advocate open borders, but surely the absolute most any observation of this form could show is that there are at least two people in the world who advocate open borders for bad reasons, or advocate open borders but are terrible people, or something. How can that possibly matter?
and even if in fact Uzbekistan has lower taxes because it has fewer Swedes and Swedes have a genetic predisposition to raise taxes, someone migrating from Sweden to Uzbekistan for lower taxes needn’t be aware of that and needn’t have any preference for not being around Swedes.
Of course, one consequence of this is that if enough Swedes migrate they’ll destroy the aspect of Uzbekistan that attracted them in the first place.
In any case, assuming for the sake of argument that there is indeed a positive correlation between being “protected” from immigrants and supporting letting more of them in: I don’t understand how your reply is responsive to what I wrote. It seems exactly parallel to this: “Many people advocate prison reform for the sake of the prisoners.” “Oh year? Well, a lot of those people prefer to live in places with lower crime rates.” Which is true enough, but hardly relevant. There’s no inconsistency between wanting some group of people to be better off, and having a personal preference for not living near a lot of them.
It is hypocritical in the original sense of the term, the one from which the word’s negative connotations derive, i.e., a leader who insists that the group make sacrifices for the “greater good” without participating in those sacrifices himself.
they’ll destroy the aspect of Uzbekistan that attracted them in the first place.
Until the number of Swedes in Uzbekistan is extremely large, it’ll presumably still be better than Sweden in that respect.
It is hypocritical in the original sense of the term
That doesn’t actually seem to be the original sense of the term, at least according to my reading of the OED, but I don’t think it matters. Anyway, let’s suppose you’re right and some advocates of liberal immigration policies are hypocrites in that sense. I don’t see how that’s evidence that the policies are bad, nor do I see how it’s responsive to what your comment was a reply to (namely, a claim that many people advocate liberal immigration policies for the benefit of the immigrants).
I’m still curious about “how strong, and how many”, by the way. I assume, from what you said on this point, that you have figures; I’d love to see them.
Country B might have: a better political system, less war, more money, better treatment for some group one’s part of (women, gay people, intellectuals, Sikhs, …), less disease, nicer climate, lower taxes, better public services, better jobs, better educational opportunities.
Other than climate and to some extent money and war and disease, these mainly depend on which kind of people Country B has.
On the other hand, “such-and-such a country allows quite a lot of immigration, and the niceness of a city inversely correlates with the number of immigrants there” is a stronger argument. Especially if I can get an even stronger correlation by conditioning on types of immigrants.
Stronger, yes. But …
It’s far from clear that the central premise is correct. (Cambridge has a lot of immigrants and I think it’s very nice. I’m told Stoke-on-Trent is pretty rubbish but it has few immigrants. Two cherry-picked cases don’t tell you much about correlation but, hey, that’s one more case than bramflakes offered.)
The differential effects of immigration within a country might look different from the overall effects on the country as a whole. (Toy model, not intended to be a description of how things actually are: suppose some immigrant group produces disproportionate numbers of petty criminals and brilliant business executives; then maybe areas with more of that group will have more crime but by the magic of income tax the high earnings of the geniuses will make everyone better off.)
For some people—I am not claiming you are one—the very fact that a place has more immigrants (or more of particular “types of immigrants”, nudge nudge wink wink) makes it less nice. Those who happen not to feel that way may have a different view of the correlation between niceness and immigration from those who do. To take a special case, the immigrants themselves probably don’t feel that way, and for some who favour liberal immigration policies the benefit to the immigrants is actually an important part of the point.
Actually they probably do. That’s why they immigrated in the first place.
Well it’s remarkable how strong a correlation there is between one’s support for immigration and how strong a bubble one has around oneself to protect oneself from them. Look how many of the most prominent immigration advocates live in gated communities.
I can think of reasons why someone might migrate from country A to country B other than preferring country B’s people to country A’s.
[EDITED to add: Maybe I should give some examples, in case they really aren’t obvious. Country B might have: a better political system, less war, more money, better treatment for some group one’s part of (women, gay people, intellectuals, Sikhs, …), less disease, nicer climate, lower taxes, better public services, better jobs, better educational opportunities. Some of those might in some cases be because country A’s people are somehow better, but they needn’t be, and even if in fact Uzbekistan has lower taxes because it has fewer Swedes and Swedes have a genetic predisposition to raise taxes, someone migrating from Sweden to Uzbekistan for lower taxes needn’t be aware of that and needn’t have any preference for not being around Swedes.]
I am interested: How strong, and how many? Do you have figures?
(And how does it compare with how many of the most prominent advocates of anything you care to mention live in gated communities? The most prominent people in any given group are more likely to be rich, and richer people more often live in gated communities.)
In any case, assuming for the sake of argument that there is indeed a positive correlation between being “protected” from immigrants and supporting letting more of them in: I don’t understand how your reply is responsive to what I wrote. It seems exactly parallel to this: “Many people advocate prison reform for the sake of the prisoners.” “Oh year? Well, a lot of those people prefer to live in places with lower crime rates.” Which is true enough, but hardly relevant. There’s no inconsistency between wanting some group of people to be better off, and having a personal preference for not living near a lot of them.
Rich people are more likely to advocate open boarders.
As for prominent people: Mark Zuckerberg bought the four houses surrounding his own “because he wanted more privacy”. Bryan Caplan prides himself on the bubble he’s constructed around himself.
Again, I’d be interested in the statistics. (That isn’t a coded way of saying I think you’re wrong, by the way. But I’d be interested to know how big the differences are, whether it depends on what you mean by “rich”, etc.)
I’m not sure why this is relevant. I’m guessing that both of those people advocate open borders, but surely the absolute most any observation of this form could show is that there are at least two people in the world who advocate open borders for bad reasons, or advocate open borders but are terrible people, or something. How can that possibly matter?
Of course, one consequence of this is that if enough Swedes migrate they’ll destroy the aspect of Uzbekistan that attracted them in the first place.
It is hypocritical in the original sense of the term, the one from which the word’s negative connotations derive, i.e., a leader who insists that the group make sacrifices for the “greater good” without participating in those sacrifices himself.
Until the number of Swedes in Uzbekistan is extremely large, it’ll presumably still be better than Sweden in that respect.
That doesn’t actually seem to be the original sense of the term, at least according to my reading of the OED, but I don’t think it matters. Anyway, let’s suppose you’re right and some advocates of liberal immigration policies are hypocrites in that sense. I don’t see how that’s evidence that the policies are bad, nor do I see how it’s responsive to what your comment was a reply to (namely, a claim that many people advocate liberal immigration policies for the benefit of the immigrants).
I’m still curious about “how strong, and how many”, by the way. I assume, from what you said on this point, that you have figures; I’d love to see them.
Other than climate and to some extent money and war and disease, these mainly depend on which kind of people Country B has.
″… niceness of a city inversely correlates with the number of immigrants there”
Ask any Native American, ho ho.