Well, I want to start a blog which talks about philosophy and science-y stuff that I happen to know in a fun, informative, and well cited way—more or less similar to the kind of thing you’ve got going. I already spend a lot of time researching things that have no impact on my life because it’s fun, and I might as well find a way to make something productive out of it. This topic is one of the topics i know more than the average person about, and my plan was to collate the stuff I’d already read in high school and make a summary of it. Relatively speaking, I’m not really that interested in this topic anymore, although people on lw expressing strong opinions on the matter has made me ponder it again.
Yes, but are you sure you really want to discuss it in any detail? I hope you don’t take this as too insulting, but I think my comments have pointed out that you don’t have a great command of the IQ literature; if you try to discuss it, you may embarrass yourself when someone refutes you—or much worse, leave your readers with the impression they understand the subject better than they do. (Think of all the people who read Gould’s Mismeasure of Man or Shalizi’s “g, a Statistical Myth” and went away convinced that now they understand the topic, g has been debunked by an expert, and probably anyone who brings it up is either sadly ignorant or some sort of a racist/fascist/eugenicist.)
Edit: By the way, you probably know this, but the asian model minority effects apply to african immigrants too. Just thought I’d mention that because you mention asian model minorities influencing you on your link.
I knew that African immigrants had high IQs but as far as I had read that was a selection effect; I hadn’t heard anything about their subsequent success or failure (either in the rest of their lives or of their descendants). It would be interesting if they did as well as East Asian immigrants.
I’m not insulted because I do see that the concern is coming from a good place, but I don’t think it’s a good idea to let fear of embarrassment be a factor in my behavior. There is nothing embarrassing about having been wrong about a complex topic—If someone refutes me I can just retract my statements, and I would have learned something in the process, which would be a gain. If I was concerned about the social costs of being wrong, I’d never say anything...plus, being concerned about the social consts of being wrong tends to make a person unwilling to admit when it has happened, which is yet worse.
As for the second concern...that’s a valid one. However, I wouldn’t generalize too much from offhand comments I’ve made in an online forum on a thread discussing a completely tangential topic (PUA). On a forum, I feel relatively free to make uncited claims and to write things without putting too much thought into them—it’s just a fun activity, and something I have to actively avoid sinking time into. If this thread was specifically about race and IQ, or if I was making a new post, I might have been more careful, but with the setting as it is I considered this a casual side conversation between us rather than a platform in which I’m responsible for people’s learning. If I was writing with the purpose of informing someone (rather than having an entertaining discussion, as we are now) I would be much more scrupulous about what I write. Of course, you have no reason to believe that this is true, so you are still correct to caution me about misleading people.
I knew that African immigrants had high IQs but as far as I had read that was a selection effect;
It is due to a selection effect. But the same applies to any group of immigrants, so there is no reason to be particularly impressed by asian “model minorities”—they are “model” because they are immigrants. I think the general trend for descendants is that the second generation is the most highly educated, and then there is a steady downwards trend for all immigrant groups except European immigrants.
If you want to look at immigrants who have not undergone selection effects, look at refugees. Asian immigrants from Laos, Cambodia, etc… end up with an even worse socioeconomic lot than US-born African Americans.
There is nothing embarrassing about having been wrong about a complex topic—If someone refutes me I can just retract my statements, and I would have learned something in the process, which would be a gain. If I was concerned about the social costs of being wrong, I’d never say anything...plus, being concerned about the social consts of being wrong tends to make a person unwilling to admit when it has happened, which is yet worse.
Right; there’s issues of confirmation bias, justification bias, and so on. I’m also interested in the possible backfire effect in which weak contrary arguments ‘backfire’ as one then becomes even more convinced of one’s position because one has knocked down the criticism (and what sort of comments would one get on inflammatory topics on one’s blog? generally from uninformed people...)
But the same applies to any group of immigrants, so there is no reason to be particularly impressed by asian “model minorities”—they are “model” because they are immigrants.
I’m more impressed by their greater success in what is, as far as I know, later generations.
Yes, but are you sure you really want to discuss it in any detail? I hope you don’t take this as too insulting, but I think my comments have pointed out that you don’t have a great command of the IQ literature; if you try to discuss it, you may embarrass yourself when someone refutes you—or much worse, leave your readers with the impression they understand the subject better than they do. (Think of all the people who read Gould’s Mismeasure of Man or Shalizi’s “g, a Statistical Myth” and went away convinced that now they understand the topic, g has been debunked by an expert, and probably anyone who brings it up is either sadly ignorant or some sort of a racist/fascist/eugenicist.)
I knew that African immigrants had high IQs but as far as I had read that was a selection effect; I hadn’t heard anything about their subsequent success or failure (either in the rest of their lives or of their descendants). It would be interesting if they did as well as East Asian immigrants.
I’m not insulted because I do see that the concern is coming from a good place, but I don’t think it’s a good idea to let fear of embarrassment be a factor in my behavior. There is nothing embarrassing about having been wrong about a complex topic—If someone refutes me I can just retract my statements, and I would have learned something in the process, which would be a gain. If I was concerned about the social costs of being wrong, I’d never say anything...plus, being concerned about the social consts of being wrong tends to make a person unwilling to admit when it has happened, which is yet worse.
As for the second concern...that’s a valid one. However, I wouldn’t generalize too much from offhand comments I’ve made in an online forum on a thread discussing a completely tangential topic (PUA). On a forum, I feel relatively free to make uncited claims and to write things without putting too much thought into them—it’s just a fun activity, and something I have to actively avoid sinking time into. If this thread was specifically about race and IQ, or if I was making a new post, I might have been more careful, but with the setting as it is I considered this a casual side conversation between us rather than a platform in which I’m responsible for people’s learning. If I was writing with the purpose of informing someone (rather than having an entertaining discussion, as we are now) I would be much more scrupulous about what I write. Of course, you have no reason to believe that this is true, so you are still correct to caution me about misleading people.
It is due to a selection effect. But the same applies to any group of immigrants, so there is no reason to be particularly impressed by asian “model minorities”—they are “model” because they are immigrants. I think the general trend for descendants is that the second generation is the most highly educated, and then there is a steady downwards trend for all immigrant groups except European immigrants.
If you want to look at immigrants who have not undergone selection effects, look at refugees. Asian immigrants from Laos, Cambodia, etc… end up with an even worse socioeconomic lot than US-born African Americans.
This guy talks about stuff like this—http://www.asian-nation.org/immigrant-stats.shtml
Right; there’s issues of confirmation bias, justification bias, and so on. I’m also interested in the possible backfire effect in which weak contrary arguments ‘backfire’ as one then becomes even more convinced of one’s position because one has knocked down the criticism (and what sort of comments would one get on inflammatory topics on one’s blog? generally from uninformed people...)
I’m more impressed by their greater success in what is, as far as I know, later generations.