Do you also not understand how it is possible for the hare to catch the tortoise, for arrows to move, to learn anything one did not already know, or to do good of one’s own volition? One can prove, with impeccable logic, that all of these things are impossible. Yet they happen. The logic is wrong, and the wrongness is not in the deductive system but in the ontology, the verbal categories that embody assumptions one does not know one is making.
You can prove with impeccable logic that there is no such thing as will power. Either you want to do something or you do not; you do what you want and not what you don’t. Yet everyday experience tells us all (except those who have philosophised themselves into ignoring what they have proved cannot exist) that it is not as simple. We do, in fact, experience conflicts. That our verbal formulations of what is going on may fail us does not make the reality go away.
BTW, in your comment that Eugine_Nier linked, you say:
My father warns me that not working now will greatly reduce my future employment prospects, and that I’ll eventually have to find work or starve after they retire and can no longer support me. (So I guess I’ll starve, then?)
That’s some rather steep temporal discounting. Does that happen in the short term as well? E.g. do you leave something undone because you don’t feel like it, and later the very same day, wish your earlier self had done it?
The logic is wrong, and the wrongness is not in the deductive system but in the ontology, the verbal categories that embody assumptions one does not know one is making.
Yes, I’ve seen it happen. I just don’t understand it.
That’s some rather steep temporal discounting. Does that happen in the short term as well? E.g. do you leave something undone because you don’t feel like it, and later the very same day, wish your earlier self had done it?
Well, sort of. I do have a tendency to let stuff go undone and be inconvenienced by the fact that it’s not done (for example, I might run out of clean laundry, or put off getting a haircut for several months) but I rarely think of not doing them as mistakes to be regretted. I’ve learned all kinds of “bad” lessons that seem to amount to “putting things off never has consequences”. For example, I once skipped a midterm exam in college so I could play Final Fantasy X, and in hindsight it turned out to be the right decision. (I hadn’t studied—too much playing Final Fantasy X—so I would have done terribly. As it turned out, the professor accepted my excuse, I ended up passing the course.) Also, there’s all that time spent playing JRPGs, in which you want to explore every side path before reaching the main goal and nothing ever happens until you, the player, take an action to cause it to happen.
Oh, for sure! “It’s −20º C outside and I’ve been out of the house for 16 hours and I really don’t want to go jump into a cold pool and swim laps for an hour, and I’ll be exhausted after, but I haven’t exercised in 2 days and I really should.” This is kind of a worst-case scenario. Most of the time, for me anyway, the parts of me that do want to do something and the parts that don’t are equally lined up. (For example: I don’t want to swim because I could go home and play on the computer and go to bed early instead, but I do want to swim because I’ll get crabby if I don’t and I’ll feel better afterwards if I do.)
To me, simplifying it down to ‘feeling like it’ collapses the difference between someone who consistently will choose to swim in the aforementioned example, and someone who consistently won’t. You could call the difference ‘being better at delayed gratification’ but I think the usual definition of willpower covers it quite well.
Sometimes you distract or fool yourself into starting, and then it’s not so bad after that. Like, you don’t want to write a paper, so you start a video on youtube, and while you’re distracted with that, tell yourself you’re just going to open MS Word, and then maybe write something or maybe not; then you tell yourself you’re just going to write 100 words, and so on. Do it a few times in a row, and the process becomes habit, and then you might not even have to lie to yourself about why you’re opening MS Word, because it’s not a conscious decision anymore.
You don’t have to be unhappier not doing the thing than you are doing it, necessarily. You just have to be unhappy enough not doing the thing to keep trying to try.
That works for you? For me, the best way is to plan, preferably a day in advance, that ‘I will write my essay on Friday night’ or something. There is definitely a part of myself that resents having another part of myself ‘trick’ it into anything, productive or not.
People are different, I guess. “Deciding” to do something on Friday night has little correlation with whether I will actually do it on Friday night, or at all. It mainly just makes me feel bad when I haven’t written the essay as of Saturday morning.
See, there’s a part of me that really doesn’t like writing essays—actually, not writing essays in particular, as I’ve mostly fixed that problem, but just being productive, doing effortful things. If I try to power through it, that part of me complains so loud that I’m very motivated to rationalize doing whatever it is later. Giving it advance warning just makes it complain louder, if anything. But it’s easily distracted.
I can’t identify with what you say about resenting being “tricked”. I actually feel pretty good when I successfully circumvent the part of me that doesn’t care what happens tomorrow. Now, ideally, I’d like to train the complaining part of me to just shut up when I do productive things, but that’s not easy, and I suspect I’ll need to experience many successes first so that I can associate trying with good things.
That’s a very interesting difference. I find that being psychologically prepared to do something productive makes it way easier. If I trick myself into going for a swim by telling the lazy part of myself that I’ll just go for 20 minutes, you can bet that if 20 minutes is up and I try to motivate myself to keep going, there will be several sub-components of my mind screaming ‘but you promised!’ This is even more true for things that aren’t habits for me. (Exercise is something I do pretty easily by pure habit.)
I tend to decide what to do by imagining my options and choosing the one that I feel the best about. To me, “feeling like doing something” and “deciding to do something” feel like they’re the exact same thing. Maybe that’s why I get confused when people talk about doing things they don’t feel like or don’t want to do? They have some kind of “override” in their brains that kicks in between feeling like doing something and actually doing it—which they call “willpower”—and which I’m not aware of having?
I think in order to understand what willpower is and what it is useful for, it is important to understand that people want more than one thing. For example, I want to read Internet news. I also want to improve my math abilities, increase my programming skills, read novels, learn more physics, improve at my job, draw more pictures, bicycle more, spend more time in nature, and bake more delicious strawberry-rhubarb pies of which I will place one scoop of vanilla ice cream on each slice I eat. That’s not even close to an exhaustive list of all the things I want.
Multiple wants will often come into conflict with one another. All of the things I’ve mentioned take time. My time is limited. So I have to put some kind of priority ordering on them. Sometimes I should do something where I will only accomplish what I want in the long term. Sometimes I should do things that can be quickly or easily accomplished with little mental effort in the short term. Mostly people talk about willpower when they’re having trouble doing the long term or high effort things they want to do, not the short term or low effort things they want to do.
So the need for willpower mostly arises when people are trying to maximize attainment of various wants which compete for their time and energy. Since the longer term wants don’t maximize short term rewards, they take more mental effort to accomplish since you don’t feel automatic and immediate positive reinforcement from them (you want to do them in the abstract, but there are other things that would make you happier right now if you did them instead).
So when someone does something requiring willpower, they want to do it in an intellectual sense, and they have some emotional stake in whether it gets done, but they don’t want to do it in the sense that they are getting a large positive reinforcement from anticipating the task. Possibly they feel bad when they anticipate not doing it, or it just doesn’t generate as much excitement at the moment as the other task. So they want to do it, but it requires willpower for them to do so. I think willpower is really just a way to talk about the mental effort required to do something a person wants to do, which differs for different wants. If you want to know more about what might actually affect how willpower works, understanding more about motivation will probably help.
I prefer to minimize the need for willpower in long term goals, however. If I can find a way to give myself short term positive reinforcement for doing something that achieves a long term goal, I will. Anyway, I hope that helps explain it.
I don’t understand how is it even possible to do something without feeling like doing it.
Do you also not understand how it is possible for the hare to catch the tortoise, for arrows to move, to learn anything one did not already know, or to do good of one’s own volition? One can prove, with impeccable logic, that all of these things are impossible. Yet they happen. The logic is wrong, and the wrongness is not in the deductive system but in the ontology, the verbal categories that embody assumptions one does not know one is making.
You can prove with impeccable logic that there is no such thing as will power. Either you want to do something or you do not; you do what you want and not what you don’t. Yet everyday experience tells us all (except those who have philosophised themselves into ignoring what they have proved cannot exist) that it is not as simple. We do, in fact, experience conflicts. That our verbal formulations of what is going on may fail us does not make the reality go away.
BTW, in your comment that Eugine_Nier linked, you say:
That’s some rather steep temporal discounting. Does that happen in the short term as well? E.g. do you leave something undone because you don’t feel like it, and later the very same day, wish your earlier self had done it?
Yes, I’ve seen it happen. I just don’t understand it.
Well, sort of. I do have a tendency to let stuff go undone and be inconvenienced by the fact that it’s not done (for example, I might run out of clean laundry, or put off getting a haircut for several months) but I rarely think of not doing them as mistakes to be regretted. I’ve learned all kinds of “bad” lessons that seem to amount to “putting things off never has consequences”. For example, I once skipped a midterm exam in college so I could play Final Fantasy X, and in hindsight it turned out to be the right decision. (I hadn’t studied—too much playing Final Fantasy X—so I would have done terribly. As it turned out, the professor accepted my excuse, I ended up passing the course.) Also, there’s all that time spent playing JRPGs, in which you want to explore every side path before reaching the main goal and nothing ever happens until you, the player, take an action to cause it to happen.
Oh, for sure! “It’s −20º C outside and I’ve been out of the house for 16 hours and I really don’t want to go jump into a cold pool and swim laps for an hour, and I’ll be exhausted after, but I haven’t exercised in 2 days and I really should.” This is kind of a worst-case scenario. Most of the time, for me anyway, the parts of me that do want to do something and the parts that don’t are equally lined up. (For example: I don’t want to swim because I could go home and play on the computer and go to bed early instead, but I do want to swim because I’ll get crabby if I don’t and I’ll feel better afterwards if I do.)
To me, that reads as a more complicated form of “feeling like it”...
To me, simplifying it down to ‘feeling like it’ collapses the difference between someone who consistently will choose to swim in the aforementioned example, and someone who consistently won’t. You could call the difference ‘being better at delayed gratification’ but I think the usual definition of willpower covers it quite well.
Sometimes you distract or fool yourself into starting, and then it’s not so bad after that. Like, you don’t want to write a paper, so you start a video on youtube, and while you’re distracted with that, tell yourself you’re just going to open MS Word, and then maybe write something or maybe not; then you tell yourself you’re just going to write 100 words, and so on. Do it a few times in a row, and the process becomes habit, and then you might not even have to lie to yourself about why you’re opening MS Word, because it’s not a conscious decision anymore.
You don’t have to be unhappier not doing the thing than you are doing it, necessarily. You just have to be unhappy enough not doing the thing to keep trying to try.
That works for you? For me, the best way is to plan, preferably a day in advance, that ‘I will write my essay on Friday night’ or something. There is definitely a part of myself that resents having another part of myself ‘trick’ it into anything, productive or not.
People are different, I guess. “Deciding” to do something on Friday night has little correlation with whether I will actually do it on Friday night, or at all. It mainly just makes me feel bad when I haven’t written the essay as of Saturday morning.
See, there’s a part of me that really doesn’t like writing essays—actually, not writing essays in particular, as I’ve mostly fixed that problem, but just being productive, doing effortful things. If I try to power through it, that part of me complains so loud that I’m very motivated to rationalize doing whatever it is later. Giving it advance warning just makes it complain louder, if anything. But it’s easily distracted.
I can’t identify with what you say about resenting being “tricked”. I actually feel pretty good when I successfully circumvent the part of me that doesn’t care what happens tomorrow. Now, ideally, I’d like to train the complaining part of me to just shut up when I do productive things, but that’s not easy, and I suspect I’ll need to experience many successes first so that I can associate trying with good things.
That’s a very interesting difference. I find that being psychologically prepared to do something productive makes it way easier. If I trick myself into going for a swim by telling the lazy part of myself that I’ll just go for 20 minutes, you can bet that if 20 minutes is up and I try to motivate myself to keep going, there will be several sub-components of my mind screaming ‘but you promised!’ This is even more true for things that aren’t habits for me. (Exercise is something I do pretty easily by pure habit.)
Can you give an example of it, since the one Swimmer963 offered doesn’t qualify?
I tend to decide what to do by imagining my options and choosing the one that I feel the best about. To me, “feeling like doing something” and “deciding to do something” feel like they’re the exact same thing. Maybe that’s why I get confused when people talk about doing things they don’t feel like or don’t want to do? They have some kind of “override” in their brains that kicks in between feeling like doing something and actually doing it—which they call “willpower”—and which I’m not aware of having?
Maybe it does? Willpower is something that confuses me, after all.
I think in order to understand what willpower is and what it is useful for, it is important to understand that people want more than one thing. For example, I want to read Internet news. I also want to improve my math abilities, increase my programming skills, read novels, learn more physics, improve at my job, draw more pictures, bicycle more, spend more time in nature, and bake more delicious strawberry-rhubarb pies of which I will place one scoop of vanilla ice cream on each slice I eat. That’s not even close to an exhaustive list of all the things I want.
Multiple wants will often come into conflict with one another. All of the things I’ve mentioned take time. My time is limited. So I have to put some kind of priority ordering on them. Sometimes I should do something where I will only accomplish what I want in the long term. Sometimes I should do things that can be quickly or easily accomplished with little mental effort in the short term. Mostly people talk about willpower when they’re having trouble doing the long term or high effort things they want to do, not the short term or low effort things they want to do.
So the need for willpower mostly arises when people are trying to maximize attainment of various wants which compete for their time and energy. Since the longer term wants don’t maximize short term rewards, they take more mental effort to accomplish since you don’t feel automatic and immediate positive reinforcement from them (you want to do them in the abstract, but there are other things that would make you happier right now if you did them instead).
So when someone does something requiring willpower, they want to do it in an intellectual sense, and they have some emotional stake in whether it gets done, but they don’t want to do it in the sense that they are getting a large positive reinforcement from anticipating the task. Possibly they feel bad when they anticipate not doing it, or it just doesn’t generate as much excitement at the moment as the other task. So they want to do it, but it requires willpower for them to do so. I think willpower is really just a way to talk about the mental effort required to do something a person wants to do, which differs for different wants. If you want to know more about what might actually affect how willpower works, understanding more about motivation will probably help.
I prefer to minimize the need for willpower in long term goals, however. If I can find a way to give myself short term positive reinforcement for doing something that achieves a long term goal, I will. Anyway, I hope that helps explain it.