It occurs to me that people with an impaired social awareness and capabilities are less likely to be aware of their impairment, much like the Anosognosic’s Dilemma. As the Wired survey is a self-diagnosis, I would not place too much confidence in its scores, at least as conventionally interpreted. High scores might suggest a high degree of self-awareness that there is a problem (which is good!)
I also wonder if ‘AS’ is some innate and unchangeable characteristic of a person, beyond his ability to control, or if it is more like a learned behavior shaped by experience. This whole ‘diagnosis’ mentality suggests AS is a medical condition, but if it is not, then we are not helping those who might be able to change, and instead encouraging them to see it as a natural and permanent characteristic of themselves.
I also wonder if ‘AS’ is some innate and unchangeable characteristic of a person, beyond his ability to control, or if it is more like a learned behavior shaped by experience. This whole ‘diagnosis’ mentality suggests AS is a medical condition, but if it is not, then we are not helping those who might be able to change, and instead encouraging them to see it as a natural and permanent characteristic of themselves.
AS is innate but very little in the human brain is unchangeable. If you spend enough time playing the the violin you can reliably and permanently alter the amount of the brain that is dedicated to fine motor control of the fingertips. The same applies to social processing. Paraphrasing Tony Attwood here, and emphasizing that this doesn’t apply to everyone, many intelligent people with Aspergers’ find that they can develop all the ‘normal’ social behaviors over time. He estimates that in a typical such case the development is just pushed back to 10 years behind what it would be for a neurotypical individual of the same intelligence. Note that the 10 year figure is the same figure given by experts on expertise. You can become an expert in anything with 10 years of practice. Including acting ‘normal’.
Obviously there are more serious difficulties that can come with AS and not all of these are overcome by training.
This whole ‘diagnosis’ mentality suggests AS is a medical condition, but if it is not, then we are not helping those who might be able to change, and instead encouraging them to see it as a natural and permanent characteristic of themselves.
The diagnosis mentality infuriates a lot of people, particularly those with ‘conditions’ that are on the borderline of being a ‘personality trait’, such as ADHD and high functioning AS. This can disempower the individuals, limiting their ability to make the most of their personal strengths and weaknesses. Yet it can be even more damaging to ignore the difference. The difference in thinking and brain function is real. Trying to force people to adapt and learn how to be a ‘normal’ person is often a recipe for shame and mediocrity. The key in this case and in life in general is to acknowledge your strengths, weaknesses and preferences fully while also being able to change and adapt them as necessary. Often that means embracing the label ‘AS’ in order to benefit from all the research and experiences of others who happen to be similar.
“Have you tried not being a mutant?”—Iceman’s Mom.
My experience agrees with your 10-year figure for “acting normal.” I probably became aware of my own social incompetence when I was ~6 years old, and I didn’t acquire consistent social competence until I was ~16. I’m 22 now and seem to be entirely caught up on social functioning, but it was not an easy process. I likewise agree that the AS label is very useful for finding existing solutions to the problems associated with the condition; I wasn’t diagnosed until I was 13 and I suspect parts of my life would have been much easier if I’d had access to books about social interaction aimed specifically at Aspies when I was very young.
I tend to hover on the fringe of accepting the AS label myself, the only reason I don’t is that one there is some doubt as to which precise way I am not NT. (One AS diagnosis but other experts suggested different descriptions). I can say that I envy you in getting a diagnosis as young as 13. Having access to those books even in your early teens must have been a huge boon.
Miscommunication on my part—at no point have I had access to books of that sort, nor am I sure that they even exist (and there’s little use in looking now). I just meant to say that they would have been really useful.
Really the thing that ended up helping me most was having regular sessions with a shrink who could answer my bizarre questions about social activity with answers that didn’t rely on common assumptions. That basically allowed me to form and test theories about how NT people worked without suffering negative consequences for being wrong.
Miscommunication on my part—at no point have I had access to books of that sort, nor am I sure that they even exist (and there’s little use in looking now). I just meant to say that they would have been really useful.
Ahh, I see.
The time with the shrink sounds useful. That sort of personal engagement with a (good) shrink is helpful for everyone and so much more so for those for whom the advice of well meaning associates give is usually completely incomprehensible! What is this ‘appropriate’ term? What do people mean when they say ‘respect’? It’s sure as heck not what ‘respect’ resolves as to me with my neurological wiring! ‘Self esteem’? ‘Needy?’ “What do you mean tit-for-tat is not the right strategy for social games? That’s crazy!”
“What do you mean tit-for-tat is not the right strategy for social games? That’s crazy!”
Are you thinking you should defect first? Or that you should punish defectors more than tit-for-tat would? Social games aren’t as clearly defined as the prisoner’s dilemma, but tit-for-tat seems to be what people usually do (starting off on good terms, but getting back at someone when they’ve been wronged).
Young Aspies are often dumbfounded when they reciprocate aggression in kind and get punished for it while the instigator does not. They need to arrive at a more mature understanding of the Machiavellian nature of social games so that they can more realistically understand what is going on. This is the sort of thing a shrink can explain but many peers will not.
I generally find interacting with people (NT or otherwise) to be approximately as tiring as programming a computer; it’s fun for short periods of time and a serious effort for long periods of time, though still often rewarding in the latter case. I almost answered this question by saying that social interaction wasn’t tiring, but reevaluated after realizing that I’ve just grown used to it; other people’s behavior is impossible to explain unless they find social interaction significantly less tiring than I do.
I’m not a complete introvert, but I do lean in that general direction.
For me, it depends on the individual’s communication style and how well I know them. If I have to put a lot of effort into deciphering what they’re saying or phrasing my words carefully so that they understand me, I’ll tire quickly, whether they’re NT or not. (It’s more common for auties to have communication styles that I find easy to parse, though.) Interacting with most NTs is draining but not badly so, but I also know one or two NTs where interacting with them is actually energizing for me.
I haven’t made any special effort at being normal, though. I’ve focused on finding the best ways to use my strengths, rather than trying to find ways to mitigate my weaknesses.
My natural tendency in social situations is to process things rather thoroughly, which is more work but tends to lead to a better understanding of what’s going on (modulo the fact that some kinds of interactions don’t make sense to me and thus are nearly impossible to integrate into my model). I could, in theory, rearrange my habits so that I was able to interact for longer stretches without getting tired, but at the cost of some of my perceptiveness, and I’m not interested in doing that.
As a matter of fact, I have a friend with ASD, to a significant enough degree that it’s barely possible to talk to him for a couple of minutes without realizing he has some sort of social disorder, who somehow has managed to become the most successful and prolific social networker I know. It may have helped that one of his primary obsessive focuses was an interest that many other people share (he practically ran the music scene on college campus,) but the degree of social success he’s achieved in spite of his disadvantages is completely beyond my ability to explain. He’d make an interesting psychological case study.
No, I expect such cases are fairly rare. At least for all situations which are with multiple NTs. There are some NTs that can act like ‘real people’ if you catch them by themselves! ;)
It occurs to me that people with an impaired social awareness and capabilities are less likely to be aware of their impairment, much like the Anosognosic’s Dilemma. As the Wired survey is a self-diagnosis, I would not place too much confidence in its scores, at least as conventionally interpreted. High scores might suggest a high degree of self-awareness that there is a problem (which is good!)
True enough. But on the flip side it’s pretty damn hard to not notice that you a completely different from most people around you after 20 or so years of experience. People with Aspergers’ also have an impairment in the critical social skills of self deception, compartmentalization and creating and embracing a self image constructed for the purpose of public relations.
A few comments that might not be too popular.
It occurs to me that people with an impaired social awareness and capabilities are less likely to be aware of their impairment, much like the Anosognosic’s Dilemma. As the Wired survey is a self-diagnosis, I would not place too much confidence in its scores, at least as conventionally interpreted. High scores might suggest a high degree of self-awareness that there is a problem (which is good!)
I also wonder if ‘AS’ is some innate and unchangeable characteristic of a person, beyond his ability to control, or if it is more like a learned behavior shaped by experience. This whole ‘diagnosis’ mentality suggests AS is a medical condition, but if it is not, then we are not helping those who might be able to change, and instead encouraging them to see it as a natural and permanent characteristic of themselves.
AS is innate but very little in the human brain is unchangeable. If you spend enough time playing the the violin you can reliably and permanently alter the amount of the brain that is dedicated to fine motor control of the fingertips. The same applies to social processing. Paraphrasing Tony Attwood here, and emphasizing that this doesn’t apply to everyone, many intelligent people with Aspergers’ find that they can develop all the ‘normal’ social behaviors over time. He estimates that in a typical such case the development is just pushed back to 10 years behind what it would be for a neurotypical individual of the same intelligence. Note that the 10 year figure is the same figure given by experts on expertise. You can become an expert in anything with 10 years of practice. Including acting ‘normal’.
Obviously there are more serious difficulties that can come with AS and not all of these are overcome by training.
The diagnosis mentality infuriates a lot of people, particularly those with ‘conditions’ that are on the borderline of being a ‘personality trait’, such as ADHD and high functioning AS. This can disempower the individuals, limiting their ability to make the most of their personal strengths and weaknesses. Yet it can be even more damaging to ignore the difference. The difference in thinking and brain function is real. Trying to force people to adapt and learn how to be a ‘normal’ person is often a recipe for shame and mediocrity. The key in this case and in life in general is to acknowledge your strengths, weaknesses and preferences fully while also being able to change and adapt them as necessary. Often that means embracing the label ‘AS’ in order to benefit from all the research and experiences of others who happen to be similar.
“Have you tried not being a mutant?”—Iceman’s Mom.
My experience agrees with your 10-year figure for “acting normal.” I probably became aware of my own social incompetence when I was ~6 years old, and I didn’t acquire consistent social competence until I was ~16. I’m 22 now and seem to be entirely caught up on social functioning, but it was not an easy process. I likewise agree that the AS label is very useful for finding existing solutions to the problems associated with the condition; I wasn’t diagnosed until I was 13 and I suspect parts of my life would have been much easier if I’d had access to books about social interaction aimed specifically at Aspies when I was very young.
I tend to hover on the fringe of accepting the AS label myself, the only reason I don’t is that one there is some doubt as to which precise way I am not NT. (One AS diagnosis but other experts suggested different descriptions). I can say that I envy you in getting a diagnosis as young as 13. Having access to those books even in your early teens must have been a huge boon.
Miscommunication on my part—at no point have I had access to books of that sort, nor am I sure that they even exist (and there’s little use in looking now). I just meant to say that they would have been really useful.
Really the thing that ended up helping me most was having regular sessions with a shrink who could answer my bizarre questions about social activity with answers that didn’t rely on common assumptions. That basically allowed me to form and test theories about how NT people worked without suffering negative consequences for being wrong.
Ahh, I see.
The time with the shrink sounds useful. That sort of personal engagement with a (good) shrink is helpful for everyone and so much more so for those for whom the advice of well meaning associates give is usually completely incomprehensible! What is this ‘appropriate’ term? What do people mean when they say ‘respect’? It’s sure as heck not what ‘respect’ resolves as to me with my neurological wiring! ‘Self esteem’? ‘Needy?’ “What do you mean tit-for-tat is not the right strategy for social games? That’s crazy!”
Are you thinking you should defect first? Or that you should punish defectors more than tit-for-tat would? Social games aren’t as clearly defined as the prisoner’s dilemma, but tit-for-tat seems to be what people usually do (starting off on good terms, but getting back at someone when they’ve been wronged).
Young Aspies are often dumbfounded when they reciprocate aggression in kind and get punished for it while the instigator does not. They need to arrive at a more mature understanding of the Machiavellian nature of social games so that they can more realistically understand what is going on. This is the sort of thing a shrink can explain but many peers will not.
Do you know of any people on the AS spectrum who can interact with NTs without it being tiring?
I generally find interacting with people (NT or otherwise) to be approximately as tiring as programming a computer; it’s fun for short periods of time and a serious effort for long periods of time, though still often rewarding in the latter case. I almost answered this question by saying that social interaction wasn’t tiring, but reevaluated after realizing that I’ve just grown used to it; other people’s behavior is impossible to explain unless they find social interaction significantly less tiring than I do.
I’m not a complete introvert, but I do lean in that general direction.
For me, it depends on the individual’s communication style and how well I know them. If I have to put a lot of effort into deciphering what they’re saying or phrasing my words carefully so that they understand me, I’ll tire quickly, whether they’re NT or not. (It’s more common for auties to have communication styles that I find easy to parse, though.) Interacting with most NTs is draining but not badly so, but I also know one or two NTs where interacting with them is actually energizing for me.
I haven’t made any special effort at being normal, though. I’ve focused on finding the best ways to use my strengths, rather than trying to find ways to mitigate my weaknesses.
Could you expand on that?
My natural tendency in social situations is to process things rather thoroughly, which is more work but tends to lead to a better understanding of what’s going on (modulo the fact that some kinds of interactions don’t make sense to me and thus are nearly impossible to integrate into my model). I could, in theory, rearrange my habits so that I was able to interact for longer stretches without getting tired, but at the cost of some of my perceptiveness, and I’m not interested in doing that.
As a matter of fact, I have a friend with ASD, to a significant enough degree that it’s barely possible to talk to him for a couple of minutes without realizing he has some sort of social disorder, who somehow has managed to become the most successful and prolific social networker I know. It may have helped that one of his primary obsessive focuses was an interest that many other people share (he practically ran the music scene on college campus,) but the degree of social success he’s achieved in spite of his disadvantages is completely beyond my ability to explain. He’d make an interesting psychological case study.
No, I expect such cases are fairly rare. At least for all situations which are with multiple NTs. There are some NTs that can act like ‘real people’ if you catch them by themselves! ;)
I can interact with NTs (one at a time), as long as they are nice people, and not get tired, but I’m a rare breed (autistic extrovert).
True enough. But on the flip side it’s pretty damn hard to not notice that you a completely different from most people around you after 20 or so years of experience. People with Aspergers’ also have an impairment in the critical social skills of self deception, compartmentalization and creating and embracing a self image constructed for the purpose of public relations.