You need to go to an “organization” that breaks into groups that have meetings, which gives you time to socialize in general (both before and after, and probably during). Preferably groups that plan group activities on top of that.
No, I mean an “organization” of the type that starts with “chur” but leads me to pause in the middle and try to act as if I were saying “never mind” when I mistakenly suggest it here.
Yes, of course, but it appears that the Boy Scouts of America may also fit the relevant parts of your description (meetings, groups, planned activities), and I was involved with a Scout troop for years. It’s certainly not a group of ordinary people, but it is also not selected for academics in the way that the populations of tabletop gaming geeks, Internet nerds, college students, and college instructors are.
The national organization is dominated by shitheads, agreed. That does make it difficult for me or anyone else who believes that “good citizen” does not logically imply “reverent theist” (edit: sorry, “non-LGBT reverent theist”) to work for the organization in any formal capacity. It does not, however, affect the experience I have gained from my acquaintance with this group of people.
Okay, but I figured you’d want a group of young adults (which the subgroup covers) and a more general age/sex diverse group (main congregation).
Anyway, did you want an actual answer for how to meet ordinary people, or did you just want to split hairs about the terms I use when I try to give an answer? :-[
To be completely honest, I wanted to express my disapproval for Roko’s sneering at the mundanes. I appreciate the info, though, and I apologize for not explicitly saying so earlier.
The most parsimonious explanation is “because I was raised that way”, but I believe that it can be shown that such sneering doesn’t win. I haven’t had a reason to articulate my thoughts on the subject, however—if you’d like me to make an attempt, let me know and I’ll see what I can come up with. Being as I’m on a bus at the moment, it would be difficult to organize and post anything substantive just now.
Instinctively, when in far mode, I would be inclined to judge feelings by their costs and their benefits. I can see very little benefit to contempt (the emotion I see behind the sneer) - so far as I can determine all it gives you is a filter on the people you spend your time with and energy on. On the cost side, however, contempt impairs your ability to become acquainted, and this will cost you because:
Mundanes are a varied, populous, and influential demographic, many of whom will inevitably fail to conform to the stereotype. (I am a bit trigger-happy with stereotype-bad! arguments, possibly because I’m “half”-black. Moving on.)
Many mundanes are great potential friends.
Many mundanes know things you don’t know in precisely the same way that many geeks know things you don’t know—thanks to their different lives and life experiences. Even more importantly, they might well know things your geek friends don’t know that you don’t know.
I think this last point is the strongest—by cutting yourself off from a class of experiences, you cut yourself off from a field of knowledge. Even anthropological curiosity ought to impel you to give these people more consideration than this, and you won’t be any kind of competent anthropologist if you can’t treat your subjects fairly.
When it comes to being contemptuous of individuals, I’m not going to tell you what criteria to use, but geekdom is not some unique domain of philosopher-kings that absorbs all the worthy people of the world and gathers them in one family of subcultures. That kind of heuristic is as risky as confirmation bias.
This is all very true and really important for people to remember. At the same time sneering at outsiders is a great community building exercise. Just don’t take the performance literally.
Also, sneering at outsiders is something that normal people do…
Anyway, I don’t think that I was trying to sneer—just present other 99.9% of the world as they really are. They are not “bad people”. They, like us, are just different.
I can second that description of the scouts—although my own troop was peculiarly into Magic and Warhammer for reasons I never figured out (I certainly wasn’t), and almost by definition scouts can’t be college students or college instructors, since they would have aged out.
You need to go to an “organization” that breaks into groups that have meetings, which gives you time to socialize in general (both before and after, and probably during). Preferably groups that plan group activities on top of that.
...Boy Scouts of America?
No, I mean an “organization” of the type that starts with “chur” but leads me to pause in the middle and try to act as if I were saying “never mind” when I mistakenly suggest it here.
Ah yes—churrigueresque architecture groups.
There’s always the Unitarian Universalist church: 18% atheist and 33% agnostic, according to Wikipedia.
Yes, of course, but it appears that the Boy Scouts of America may also fit the relevant parts of your description (meetings, groups, planned activities), and I was involved with a Scout troop for years. It’s certainly not a group of ordinary people, but it is also not selected for academics in the way that the populations of tabletop gaming geeks, Internet nerds, college students, and college instructors are.
The official policy of the Boy Scouts of America is to deny membership to atheists and to homosexuals.
The national organization is dominated by shitheads, agreed. That does make it difficult for me or anyone else who believes that “good citizen” does not logically imply “reverent theist” (edit: sorry, “non-LGBT reverent theist”) to work for the organization in any formal capacity. It does not, however, affect the experience I have gained from my acquaintance with this group of people.
Okay, but I figured you’d want a group of young adults (which the subgroup covers) and a more general age/sex diverse group (main congregation).
Anyway, did you want an actual answer for how to meet ordinary people, or did you just want to split hairs about the terms I use when I try to give an answer? :-[
To be completely honest, I wanted to express my disapproval for Roko’s sneering at the mundanes. I appreciate the info, though, and I apologize for not explicitly saying so earlier.
I suspect that most people would read
as sneering at nerds.
Less “nerds” than “us”, I suspect, but okay.
If I may ask, why do you disapprove? (Especially given that you don’t seem to spend very much time among such people.)
The most parsimonious explanation is “because I was raised that way”, but I believe that it can be shown that such sneering doesn’t win. I haven’t had a reason to articulate my thoughts on the subject, however—if you’d like me to make an attempt, let me know and I’ll see what I can come up with. Being as I’m on a bus at the moment, it would be difficult to organize and post anything substantive just now.
I’m curious to hear your argument.
I apologize for making this a rant, but:
Instinctively, when in far mode, I would be inclined to judge feelings by their costs and their benefits. I can see very little benefit to contempt (the emotion I see behind the sneer) - so far as I can determine all it gives you is a filter on the people you spend your time with and energy on. On the cost side, however, contempt impairs your ability to become acquainted, and this will cost you because:
Mundanes are a varied, populous, and influential demographic, many of whom will inevitably fail to conform to the stereotype. (I am a bit trigger-happy with stereotype-bad! arguments, possibly because I’m “half”-black. Moving on.)
Many mundanes are great potential friends.
Many mundanes know things you don’t know in precisely the same way that many geeks know things you don’t know—thanks to their different lives and life experiences. Even more importantly, they might well know things your geek friends don’t know that you don’t know.
I think this last point is the strongest—by cutting yourself off from a class of experiences, you cut yourself off from a field of knowledge. Even anthropological curiosity ought to impel you to give these people more consideration than this, and you won’t be any kind of competent anthropologist if you can’t treat your subjects fairly.
When it comes to being contemptuous of individuals, I’m not going to tell you what criteria to use, but geekdom is not some unique domain of philosopher-kings that absorbs all the worthy people of the world and gathers them in one family of subcultures. That kind of heuristic is as risky as confirmation bias.
This is all very true and really important for people to remember. At the same time sneering at outsiders is a great community building exercise. Just don’t take the performance literally.
I’m not really comfortable with that. I have too often seen similar views seriously proposed.
Also, sneering at outsiders is something that normal people do…
Anyway, I don’t think that I was trying to sneer—just present other 99.9% of the world as they really are. They are not “bad people”. They, like us, are just different.
I can second that description of the scouts—although my own troop was peculiarly into Magic and Warhammer for reasons I never figured out (I certainly wasn’t), and almost by definition scouts can’t be college students or college instructors, since they would have aged out.