Ironically, where a neurotypical person may use amphetamines to pump themselves up or so they can waste a few months then cram for 72 hours an ADHD individual would use amphetamines to calm themselves down and so they don’t spend a few months wasting time and then have to cram for 72 hours.
This sounds pretty binary to me. I’ve heard things like this before, that ADHD medications have opposite effects on people without ADHD. How, then, does the ADHD spectrum work? Are we talking about two different types of brains, or is there a whole spectrum, and how do the medications work on people in the middle of the spectrum?
Perhaps, but it could just be an observation selected for irony and salience and presented in a context where writing an essay on all the complex nuances underlying the situation would not be appropriate.
I’ve heard things like this before, that ADHD medications have opposite effects on people without ADHD. How, then, does the ADHD spectrum work? Are we talking about two different types of brains, or is there a whole spectrum, and how do the medications work on people in the middle of the spectrum?
There are some who make such claims and I would suggest they do not have a naive understanding. As you put it, binary thinking, oversimplified and the sort of thing people present as an opinion and can even operate with effectively despite the fundamental confusion. You will note that in my claim I was careful to include a few intrusive yet important differences so as to satisfy my preference for technical accuracy without getting bogged down in caveats.
Allow me to address a few issues relevant to the examples in question:
What is in a Symptom? Let’s face it. Most ADHD diagnoses are essentially for “Can’t Sit Still and Will Not Do What He Is Told Disorder”. (Unfortunately this means that those people with ADHD who manage to not be a pain in the ass of a suitable authority are often neglected by the system.)
Now, what causes kids to not be able to sit still or adequately seek the approval of authority? Well, one thing is an under-functioning frontal lobe that can not adequately control inhibitions and maintain focus without sufficient stimulus. Ritalin helps boost frontal lobe function; (the teacher’s) problem solved.
What behavior do I expect from people who are abusing methamphetamine for recreational purposes? Well, among other things, excessive energy and aggression. ie. Sitting still and being compliant isn’t a likely outcome but for entirely different reasons than the aforementioned ADHD kid.
How it is used matters. How does an ADHD kid use Ritalin to help him study ahead of time so he doesn’t rely on 72 hours of cramming? He takes small doses regularly over time too boost motivation and attention control when he wants to study. How does someone use Ritalin to cram for 72 hours once they have wasted time for months? They take heavy doses of the stuff to override the need for sleep and maintain some semblance of mental function while they are abusing their mind and body. So the contrast in outcomes is salient, but it is in no way magical.
The inverted J With most drugs (and supplements and even lifestyle choices) having too much, even of a good thing, is worse than none at all. This also applies to brain activity. If you look at SPECT scans of brain activity in ADHD individuals compared to normal individuals you can expect to see significantly less activity in key areas of the brain in most of the ADHD individuals compared to the normal samples. Meanwhile a smaller subset of the ADHD individuals will have significantly more activity in the same areas. They display the symptom of difficulty in maintaining normal attention despite having (very loosely speaking) approximately the opposite cause. Assuming (again, extremely rough reasoning) the optimal level of activity is somewhere between the ‘normal’ level and the ‘overfocussed’ level we can expect moderate Ritalin doses to help most ADHD people a lot, normal people a little and be detrimental in any amount for the overfocussed group. If an excessive dose is given to any of the groups I would expect “ADHD like” symptoms of hyperactivity and inappropriate focus on tasks and contrary behavior, independently of base state.
Stimulants and Anxiety Anxiety and stress are typically direct effect of stimulant use, to at least some degree. They’re stimulants. That is like… the opposite of being ‘calm’. Yet ADHD sufferers sometimes (definitely not all the time) report that stimulants calm them down. Bogus? Not really. Humans are rather good at adapting to their circumstances. Many people with untreated or undiagnosed ADHD cope by working a whole heap harder to achieve what their peers do naturally. They make huge demands on themselves. Anxiety, stress and adrenalin act as the stimulant they need to maintain focus. It works. But if you give them some Adderall their brain quickly realizes “hey… I am functioning well enough that I don’t need to abuse my amygdala and adrenals just to maintain baseline”. That can be huge weight off their shoulders. Amphetamine is a whole lot less anxiety producing than having ADHD traits in an environment that is extremely toxic to you (such as a classroom or office.)
Thanks Nancy, I’ve made a note of that just so I can reference the diagrams.
ETA: And taking a glance at the article he references I now share his outrage. She lists many of the benefits of treatment, the consequences of not having treatment and then goes and explains that she denies access to treatment for her children. Letting that woman reproduce was a crime against humanity. There are very few things I call unmitigated evil but for some reason this is one of them.
I suspect you’re ranting, but I’ll bring up some practical issues.
I doubt it’s possible (except, perhaps in some extreme cases) to tell years in advance what people’s child-raising policies will be.
I’d be extremely cautious about giving an authority permission to say who will reproduce and who won’t.
And I’m tempted to reread her earlier hovels (as Megan Lindholm) to see whether there was a weird authoritarianism (she’s also come out strongly against most fanfiction in them.
It would be more reasonable to read (or reread) her more recent work, except that I got bored by it after the first trilogy, while I liked the earlier stuff.
I suspect you’re ranting, but I’ll bring up some practical issues.
I’m wouldn’t call it ‘ranting’ but I certainly don’t expect “should not be allowed to reproduce” to be taken literally, nor do I often (ever?) observe cases where people mean such claims as anything other than “I disapprove of that behavior and the type of genetic or cultural heritage that produces it”.
But following up on on the topic of eugenics. Any authority who considered they had the right to say who will reproduce and who will not is unlikely to pass my ‘kill test’. That is to say I would (if convenient) kill them. And kill anyone who tried to stop me from killing them if necessary. The means by which they gained the power in question would not necessarily matter (ie. it would not pass the kill test just because people voted on it).
Mind you, there are situations in which I would approve of eugenics. Most of them do not involve ‘authority’ in any conventional human sense. For example… bizarre situations in which:
FAI is not possible (or available in time)
I personally have access to advanced nanotechnology (eg. I have an Asgard core
There is something which provokes the need for me to take overwhelming unilateral action.
If reproduction is not limited it will contribute to existential threat. Perhaps:
Unconstrained breeding will produce people who are likely to create a uFAI before an FAI is possible.
We are progressing along the inevitable competitive equilibrium of a hardscrabble frontier.
Unconstrained breeding will result in humans devolving and losing that which is valuable about our species (with current selection pressure it probably would, not that it matters.)
Without breeding constraints (either number or in quality) humanity will not even survive to reach for the stars or use the universe in some sort of eudemonic manner.
Basically I consider the ability to dictate reproduction over the course of several generations to be equivalent to seizing absolute control and forming a stable singularity. And then act accordingly.
I suspect you’re ranting, but I’ll bring up some practical issues.
I’m wouldn’t call it ‘ranting’ but I certainly don’t expect “should not be allowed to reproduce” to be taken literally, nor do I often (ever?) observe cases where people mean such claims as anything other than “I disapprove of that behavior and the type of genetic or cultural heritage that produces it”.
But following up on on the topic of eugenics. Any authority who considered they had the right to say who will reproduce and who will not is unlikely to pass my ‘kill test’. That is to say I would (if convenient) kill them. And kill anyone who tried to stop me from killing them if necessary. The means by which they gained the power in question would not necessarily matter (ie. it would not pass the kill test just because people voted on it).
Mind you, there are situations in which I would approve of eugenics. Most of them do not involve ‘authority’ in any conventional human sense. For example… bizarre situations in which:
FAI is not possible (or available in time)
I personally have access to advanced nanotechnology (eg. I have an Asgard core
There is something which provokes the need for me to take overwhelming unilateral action.
If reproduction is not limited it will contribute to existential threat. Perhaps one of:
Unconstrained breeding will produce people who are likely to create a uFAI before an FAI is possible.
We are progressing along the inevitable competitive equilibrium of a hardscrabble frontier.
Unconstrained breeding will result in humans devolving and losing that which is valuable about our species (with current selection pressure it probably would, not that it matters.)
Without breeding constraints (either number or in quality) humanity will not even survive to reach for the stars or use the universe in some sort of eudemonic manner.
Basically I consider the ability to dictate reproduction over the course of several generations to be equivalent to seizing absolute control and forming a stable singularity. And then act accordingly.
Thanks for going into so much detail about this. Good point about the stimulants relieving anxiety. So according to this explanation, it’s not that people with ADHD have a different brain chemistry that makes stimulants affect them differently, it’s that the focus from stimulants relieves more anxiety than the stimulants create.
How does someone use Ritalin to cram for 72 hours once they have wasted time for months? They take heavy doses of the stuff to override the need for sleep and maintain some semblance of mental function while they are abusing their mind and body.
I’m not sure that terms like “waste time” and “abuse” are fair in that situation. Someone who has problems focusing, who may have mild ADHD, may have had trouble studying for months, and then take the Ritalin to try to study. This may not be as effective as taking the medication every day, but it’s an attempt to self-medicate and deal with the problem.
If you look at SPECT scans of brain activity in ADHD individuals compared to normal individuals you can expect to see significantly less activity in key areas of the brain in most of the ADHD individuals compared to the normal samples. Meanwhile a smaller subset of the ADHD individuals will have significantly more activity in the same areas.
Is this related to the two types of ADHD (inattentive and hyperactive)? Would a central nervous system depressant then actually be effective for the “overfocused” group?
This sounds pretty binary to me. I’ve heard things like this before, that ADHD medications have opposite effects on people without ADHD. How, then, does the ADHD spectrum work? Are we talking about two different types of brains, or is there a whole spectrum, and how do the medications work on people in the middle of the spectrum?
Perhaps, but it could just be an observation selected for irony and salience and presented in a context where writing an essay on all the complex nuances underlying the situation would not be appropriate.
There are some who make such claims and I would suggest they do not have a naive understanding. As you put it, binary thinking, oversimplified and the sort of thing people present as an opinion and can even operate with effectively despite the fundamental confusion. You will note that in my claim I was careful to include a few intrusive yet important differences so as to satisfy my preference for technical accuracy without getting bogged down in caveats.
Allow me to address a few issues relevant to the examples in question:
What is in a Symptom?
Let’s face it. Most ADHD diagnoses are essentially for “Can’t Sit Still and Will Not Do What He Is Told Disorder”. (Unfortunately this means that those people with ADHD who manage to not be a pain in the ass of a suitable authority are often neglected by the system.)
Now, what causes kids to not be able to sit still or adequately seek the approval of authority? Well, one thing is an under-functioning frontal lobe that can not adequately control inhibitions and maintain focus without sufficient stimulus. Ritalin helps boost frontal lobe function; (the teacher’s) problem solved.
What behavior do I expect from people who are abusing methamphetamine for recreational purposes? Well, among other things, excessive energy and aggression. ie. Sitting still and being compliant isn’t a likely outcome but for entirely different reasons than the aforementioned ADHD kid.
How it is used matters.
How does an ADHD kid use Ritalin to help him study ahead of time so he doesn’t rely on 72 hours of cramming? He takes small doses regularly over time too boost motivation and attention control when he wants to study. How does someone use Ritalin to cram for 72 hours once they have wasted time for months? They take heavy doses of the stuff to override the need for sleep and maintain some semblance of mental function while they are abusing their mind and body. So the contrast in outcomes is salient, but it is in no way magical.
The inverted J
With most drugs (and supplements and even lifestyle choices) having too much, even of a good thing, is worse than none at all. This also applies to brain activity. If you look at SPECT scans of brain activity in ADHD individuals compared to normal individuals you can expect to see significantly less activity in key areas of the brain in most of the ADHD individuals compared to the normal samples. Meanwhile a smaller subset of the ADHD individuals will have significantly more activity in the same areas. They display the symptom of difficulty in maintaining normal attention despite having (very loosely speaking) approximately the opposite cause. Assuming (again, extremely rough reasoning) the optimal level of activity is somewhere between the ‘normal’ level and the ‘overfocussed’ level we can expect moderate Ritalin doses to help most ADHD people a lot, normal people a little and be detrimental in any amount for the overfocussed group. If an excessive dose is given to any of the groups I would expect “ADHD like” symptoms of hyperactivity and inappropriate focus on tasks and contrary behavior, independently of base state.
Stimulants and Anxiety
Anxiety and stress are typically direct effect of stimulant use, to at least some degree. They’re stimulants. That is like… the opposite of being ‘calm’. Yet ADHD sufferers sometimes (definitely not all the time) report that stimulants calm them down. Bogus? Not really. Humans are rather good at adapting to their circumstances. Many people with untreated or undiagnosed ADHD cope by working a whole heap harder to achieve what their peers do naturally. They make huge demands on themselves. Anxiety, stress and adrenalin act as the stimulant they need to maintain focus. It works. But if you give them some Adderall their brain quickly realizes “hey… I am functioning well enough that I don’t need to abuse my amygdala and adrenals just to maintain baseline”. That can be huge weight off their shoulders. Amphetamine is a whole lot less anxiety producing than having ADHD traits in an environment that is extremely toxic to you (such as a classroom or office.)
A rant about the effects of serious untreated ADHD
Thanks Nancy, I’ve made a note of that just so I can reference the diagrams.
ETA: And taking a glance at the article he references I now share his outrage. She lists many of the benefits of treatment, the consequences of not having treatment and then goes and explains that she denies access to treatment for her children. Letting that woman reproduce was a crime against humanity. There are very few things I call unmitigated evil but for some reason this is one of them.
I suspect you’re ranting, but I’ll bring up some practical issues.
I doubt it’s possible (except, perhaps in some extreme cases) to tell years in advance what people’s child-raising policies will be.
I’d be extremely cautious about giving an authority permission to say who will reproduce and who won’t.
And I’m tempted to reread her earlier hovels (as Megan Lindholm) to see whether there was a weird authoritarianism (she’s also come out strongly against most fanfiction in them.
It would be more reasonable to read (or reread) her more recent work, except that I got bored by it after the first trilogy, while I liked the earlier stuff.
I’m wouldn’t call it ‘ranting’ but I certainly don’t expect “should not be allowed to reproduce” to be taken literally, nor do I often (ever?) observe cases where people mean such claims as anything other than “I disapprove of that behavior and the type of genetic or cultural heritage that produces it”.
But following up on on the topic of eugenics. Any authority who considered they had the right to say who will reproduce and who will not is unlikely to pass my ‘kill test’. That is to say I would (if convenient) kill them. And kill anyone who tried to stop me from killing them if necessary. The means by which they gained the power in question would not necessarily matter (ie. it would not pass the kill test just because people voted on it).
Mind you, there are situations in which I would approve of eugenics. Most of them do not involve ‘authority’ in any conventional human sense. For example… bizarre situations in which:
FAI is not possible (or available in time)
I personally have access to advanced nanotechnology (eg. I have an Asgard core
There is something which provokes the need for me to take overwhelming unilateral action.
If reproduction is not limited it will contribute to existential threat. Perhaps:
Unconstrained breeding will produce people who are likely to create a uFAI before an FAI is possible.
We are progressing along the inevitable competitive equilibrium of a hardscrabble frontier.
Unconstrained breeding will result in humans devolving and losing that which is valuable about our species (with current selection pressure it probably would, not that it matters.)
Without breeding constraints (either number or in quality) humanity will not even survive to reach for the stars or use the universe in some sort of eudemonic manner.
Basically I consider the ability to dictate reproduction over the course of several generations to be equivalent to seizing absolute control and forming a stable singularity. And then act accordingly.
I’m wouldn’t call it ‘ranting’ but I certainly don’t expect “should not be allowed to reproduce” to be taken literally, nor do I often (ever?) observe cases where people mean such claims as anything other than “I disapprove of that behavior and the type of genetic or cultural heritage that produces it”.
But following up on on the topic of eugenics. Any authority who considered they had the right to say who will reproduce and who will not is unlikely to pass my ‘kill test’. That is to say I would (if convenient) kill them. And kill anyone who tried to stop me from killing them if necessary. The means by which they gained the power in question would not necessarily matter (ie. it would not pass the kill test just because people voted on it).
Mind you, there are situations in which I would approve of eugenics. Most of them do not involve ‘authority’ in any conventional human sense. For example… bizarre situations in which:
FAI is not possible (or available in time)
I personally have access to advanced nanotechnology (eg. I have an Asgard core
There is something which provokes the need for me to take overwhelming unilateral action.
If reproduction is not limited it will contribute to existential threat. Perhaps one of:
Unconstrained breeding will produce people who are likely to create a uFAI before an FAI is possible.
We are progressing along the inevitable competitive equilibrium of a hardscrabble frontier.
Unconstrained breeding will result in humans devolving and losing that which is valuable about our species (with current selection pressure it probably would, not that it matters.)
Without breeding constraints (either number or in quality) humanity will not even survive to reach for the stars or use the universe in some sort of eudemonic manner.
Basically I consider the ability to dictate reproduction over the course of several generations to be equivalent to seizing absolute control and forming a stable singularity. And then act accordingly.
Thanks Nancy, I’ve made a note of that just so I can reference the diagrams.
Thanks for going into so much detail about this. Good point about the stimulants relieving anxiety. So according to this explanation, it’s not that people with ADHD have a different brain chemistry that makes stimulants affect them differently, it’s that the focus from stimulants relieves more anxiety than the stimulants create.
I’m not sure that terms like “waste time” and “abuse” are fair in that situation. Someone who has problems focusing, who may have mild ADHD, may have had trouble studying for months, and then take the Ritalin to try to study. This may not be as effective as taking the medication every day, but it’s an attempt to self-medicate and deal with the problem.
Is this related to the two types of ADHD (inattentive and hyperactive)? Would a central nervous system depressant then actually be effective for the “overfocused” group?