Downvoted for proposing a poisonous idea. You’re implying a dichotomy between being productive and experiencing positive emotions. You can find productive tasks enjoyable. Hanging out with people is an important part of staying healthy, for example, and is generally enjoyable.
there’s more to life than work—there’s actually enjoying life, having fun, etc.
Having fun is certainly something that you can do, but that doesn’t mean that it is obviously morally optimal.
My experience is the opposite; productivity generally feels awesome, sitting around doing nothing or wandering around the internet is generally depressing. (This is insufficient as a motivator for behavior.)
for these discussions we need to start differentiating meanings of the word “productive”. When I get stuff done for an interesting task, or put together a piece of furniture, that″s being productive and usually feels pretty good. When I fill out paperwork for a lease or something, that usually feels boring and not fun, with some good feeling when it’s over with. I think both of these fall under the lay definition of “productive”. Leisure/fun times trades off against both of these, but my mental image when someone says “it’s better to be productive than to spend time doing nothing” usually has me picturing boring homework.
Exactly. A person’s general productivity and procrastination will probably greatly depend on whether most of their “productivity” is going interesting tasks or filling out paperwork.
So the right long-term strategy is probably to find a way to get paid for doing interesting tasks.
Just reading the book description, this sounds right:
Passion comes after you put in the hard work to become excellent at something valuable, not before.
Maybe the trick is with the “something valuable” part. Some people make money by doing things that are not valuable, or at least some Dilbert-esque process removes a lot of value from their contribution.
So while you shouldn’t keep searching until you find something you feel passionate about (because it is your work that creates the passion), you probably should keep searching until you find something valuable, where the value you add isn’t destroyed by the process. And then keep doing it.
Yeah. The author claims you need to find something where (1) you can improve your skills, (2) you believe your work has positive value, and (3) you don’t actively dislike the people you’re working with. From there, you can increase your skills and prove your value, then barter that value into a position that has the traits which correlate with fulfillment.
How do you prevent this very strong set of conditions from making you throw up your hands and say “alright, I’m screwed”? I feel like it’s what a lot of people would, given their situation, be perfectly justified in doing.
Short answer: The bad news is, you might in fact be screwed, given the situation. The good news is, it’s always possible to change the situation; all it takes is deliberate practice, planning, and a tremendous amount of hard work.
Long answer: Those conditions are rare and valuable things. To get them, you have to offer something rare and valuable in return. Here’s how to do that.
First, make sure you’re in a situation where you can improve your skills. If your job doesn’t use any skills that can be improved, then either take up a hobby, find a new job, or use all your ingenuity to figure out something else. You might have to ignore the other two conditions for now. That sucks, but such is life.
Second, practice. Constantly stretch yourself by working on projects that are just outside your comfort zone. Seek feedback from reality and from experts.
Third, build career capital. This is a combination of demonstrably awesome output plus social proof. It’s the thing that people see and realize “this person is good at that thing.”
Fourth, use your career capital to get a position that has (more of) the traits you want. From the outside, this will probably look like getting a lucky break. Your career capital makes opportunities available, and if you know what you’re looking for, you can do a pretty good job of judging which opportunities are worth following.
Finally, keep doing this. If your skills and career capital keep improving, you can keep improving your position to get more money, more autonomy, more impact on the world, or whatever it is you’re optimizing for.
This takes a long time. The examples in the book usually take years. The shortest example I’ve ever encountered took maybe ten months. With any proposed strategy to reach happiness and fulfillment, you have to ask why everyone else hasn’t done it already, and in this case the answer is because it’s actually pretty hard. I’ve done this, though, and I can confidently say it’s worth it.
You certainly can find productive tasks enjoyable, but it’s common to find productive tasks unenjoyable. People don’t hang out with each other because it’s productive (except when networking), they hang out because it’s fun. The fact that it’s good for your health is a bonus, but isn’t and shouldn’t be the primary motivation.
Having fun is certainly something that you can do, but that doesn’t mean that it is obviously morally optimal.
Not obviously morally optimal, but it is actually morally optimal, for a broad enough sense of “having fun”. But I say this as an ethical egoist.
but it is actually morally optimal, for a broad enough sense of “having fun”. But I say this as an ethical egoist.
Just because you are an ethical egoist does not mean that ethical egoism is the system by which all moral claims ought to be judged. Have you read the metaethics sequence?
It’s true that all moral claims shouldn’t be judged by ethical egoism because I believe it, moral claims should be judged by egoism because it’s correct. And I have read the metaethics sequence, and found it interesting, though at times lacking. What part of it are you referring to?
I do not think that you comprehend the sequence if it makes you conclude that everyone should be selfish. Either way, I certainly don’t want to interact with somebody who thinks that way because it really bums me out, so I’m gonna leave this conversation.
Downvoted for proposing a poisonous idea. There IS an obvious and common dichotomy between being productive and experiencing positive emotions and pretending that it isn’t there is bullshit that will only cause people to burn out and be even less productive AND less happy. Yours is the kind of attitude that leads people to say “I can never be as good as this amazing guy so I won’t even try”. Satisficing morality and happiness separately will get us far more of both.
I agree that productive tasks tend to be less enjoyable, but (at least for me) I still experience SOME positive emotions when I’m being productive, though (and when I’m reflecting on being productive). I just meant that it’s possible to be productive and not feel miserable. I started getting more productive when I was able to use mindfulness to detach myself from an impulsive desire to experience happiness. I don’t think that’s a particularly harmful idea to suggest. I just think it’s bad to discourage people from trying to find happiness and contentment in contributing to society (being productive) by implying that it’s simply not possible. Also, from a utilitarian standpoint, spending time being productive (making a positive impact on the world) seems better than spending time pursuing individual happiness (to an extent, since you obviously are going to have a hard time being productive if you are miserable). If you value your personal happiness above others (like blacktrance), though, it totally makes sense that you would spend less time trying to make a positive impact on the world. I didn’t realize people thought that way when I responded.
I felt sad when you called what I wrote “bullshit”, though. I’m new to posting on LW and it makes me feel really depressed and rejected to have one of my first few discussions result in me being insulted like that.
Calling something bullshit is less of a slur than calling someone’s ideas poisonous. Plenty of things are bullshit. If you can’t handle people disagreeing with the truth of your statements or your ethical injunctions maybe you shouldn’t go around telling someone that expressing their concerns is a poisonous idea.
Edit- I also don’t appreciate your pathetic emotional manipulation, both here and in the related sub-thread.
Downvoted for proposing a poisonous idea. You’re implying a dichotomy between being productive and experiencing positive emotions. You can find productive tasks enjoyable. Hanging out with people is an important part of staying healthy, for example, and is generally enjoyable.
Having fun is certainly something that you can do, but that doesn’t mean that it is obviously morally optimal.
Dichotomy is a strong word, but I expect that the correlation between productivity and positive emotions is generally negative.
Of course the advice here is: go meta, and explore the strategies to make the correlation positive.
My experience is the opposite; productivity generally feels awesome, sitting around doing nothing or wandering around the internet is generally depressing. (This is insufficient as a motivator for behavior.)
for these discussions we need to start differentiating meanings of the word “productive”. When I get stuff done for an interesting task, or put together a piece of furniture, that″s being productive and usually feels pretty good. When I fill out paperwork for a lease or something, that usually feels boring and not fun, with some good feeling when it’s over with. I think both of these fall under the lay definition of “productive”. Leisure/fun times trades off against both of these, but my mental image when someone says “it’s better to be productive than to spend time doing nothing” usually has me picturing boring homework.
Exactly. A person’s general productivity and procrastination will probably greatly depend on whether most of their “productivity” is going interesting tasks or filling out paperwork.
So the right long-term strategy is probably to find a way to get paid for doing interesting tasks.
I’m currently about a quarter of the way through this book, and already it has several actionable insights on how to do that.
Just reading the book description, this sounds right:
Maybe the trick is with the “something valuable” part. Some people make money by doing things that are not valuable, or at least some Dilbert-esque process removes a lot of value from their contribution.
So while you shouldn’t keep searching until you find something you feel passionate about (because it is your work that creates the passion), you probably should keep searching until you find something valuable, where the value you add isn’t destroyed by the process. And then keep doing it.
Yeah. The author claims you need to find something where (1) you can improve your skills, (2) you believe your work has positive value, and (3) you don’t actively dislike the people you’re working with. From there, you can increase your skills and prove your value, then barter that value into a position that has the traits which correlate with fulfillment.
How do you prevent this very strong set of conditions from making you throw up your hands and say “alright, I’m screwed”? I feel like it’s what a lot of people would, given their situation, be perfectly justified in doing.
Short answer: The bad news is, you might in fact be screwed, given the situation. The good news is, it’s always possible to change the situation; all it takes is deliberate practice, planning, and a tremendous amount of hard work.
Long answer: Those conditions are rare and valuable things. To get them, you have to offer something rare and valuable in return. Here’s how to do that.
First, make sure you’re in a situation where you can improve your skills. If your job doesn’t use any skills that can be improved, then either take up a hobby, find a new job, or use all your ingenuity to figure out something else. You might have to ignore the other two conditions for now. That sucks, but such is life.
Second, practice. Constantly stretch yourself by working on projects that are just outside your comfort zone. Seek feedback from reality and from experts.
Third, build career capital. This is a combination of demonstrably awesome output plus social proof. It’s the thing that people see and realize “this person is good at that thing.”
Fourth, use your career capital to get a position that has (more of) the traits you want. From the outside, this will probably look like getting a lucky break. Your career capital makes opportunities available, and if you know what you’re looking for, you can do a pretty good job of judging which opportunities are worth following.
Finally, keep doing this. If your skills and career capital keep improving, you can keep improving your position to get more money, more autonomy, more impact on the world, or whatever it is you’re optimizing for.
This takes a long time. The examples in the book usually take years. The shortest example I’ve ever encountered took maybe ten months. With any proposed strategy to reach happiness and fulfillment, you have to ask why everyone else hasn’t done it already, and in this case the answer is because it’s actually pretty hard. I’ve done this, though, and I can confidently say it’s worth it.
Actually complete version: read the book.
(Disclaimer: I am about halfway through the book so far. There are probably further insights that I haven’t read yet.)
You certainly can find productive tasks enjoyable, but it’s common to find productive tasks unenjoyable. People don’t hang out with each other because it’s productive (except when networking), they hang out because it’s fun. The fact that it’s good for your health is a bonus, but isn’t and shouldn’t be the primary motivation.
Not obviously morally optimal, but it is actually morally optimal, for a broad enough sense of “having fun”. But I say this as an ethical egoist.
Just because you are an ethical egoist does not mean that ethical egoism is the system by which all moral claims ought to be judged. Have you read the metaethics sequence?
It’s true that all moral claims shouldn’t be judged by ethical egoism because I believe it, moral claims should be judged by egoism because it’s correct. And I have read the metaethics sequence, and found it interesting, though at times lacking. What part of it are you referring to?
I do not think that you comprehend the sequence if it makes you conclude that everyone should be selfish. Either way, I certainly don’t want to interact with somebody who thinks that way because it really bums me out, so I’m gonna leave this conversation.
Downvoted for proposing a poisonous idea. There IS an obvious and common dichotomy between being productive and experiencing positive emotions and pretending that it isn’t there is bullshit that will only cause people to burn out and be even less productive AND less happy. Yours is the kind of attitude that leads people to say “I can never be as good as this amazing guy so I won’t even try”. Satisficing morality and happiness separately will get us far more of both.
I agree that productive tasks tend to be less enjoyable, but (at least for me) I still experience SOME positive emotions when I’m being productive, though (and when I’m reflecting on being productive). I just meant that it’s possible to be productive and not feel miserable. I started getting more productive when I was able to use mindfulness to detach myself from an impulsive desire to experience happiness. I don’t think that’s a particularly harmful idea to suggest. I just think it’s bad to discourage people from trying to find happiness and contentment in contributing to society (being productive) by implying that it’s simply not possible. Also, from a utilitarian standpoint, spending time being productive (making a positive impact on the world) seems better than spending time pursuing individual happiness (to an extent, since you obviously are going to have a hard time being productive if you are miserable). If you value your personal happiness above others (like blacktrance), though, it totally makes sense that you would spend less time trying to make a positive impact on the world. I didn’t realize people thought that way when I responded.
I felt sad when you called what I wrote “bullshit”, though. I’m new to posting on LW and it makes me feel really depressed and rejected to have one of my first few discussions result in me being insulted like that.
Calling something bullshit is less of a slur than calling someone’s ideas poisonous. Plenty of things are bullshit. If you can’t handle people disagreeing with the truth of your statements or your ethical injunctions maybe you shouldn’t go around telling someone that expressing their concerns is a poisonous idea.
Edit- I also don’t appreciate your pathetic emotional manipulation, both here and in the related sub-thread.