I downvoted this post (with the implied “despite prominently opposing Alicorn’s behaviors when they occured” intended to lend at least some degree of emphasis). We didn’t need it. Meta crap is tiresome, doesn’t need a new post ever time and that particular subject had already played itself out in the immediate context of the conflict in question. (I downvote most other meta threads too, so this isn’t specific.)
I also don’t think making this post was the politically optimal move for Silas to make. I tend to downvote people who don’t seem to be acting effectively toward their perceived objectives.
Oh, and what the hell, I may as well give an actual answer while I’m here:
When to prohibit Alice from replying to Bob’s arguments?
Never. Impement a jolly ignore feature already. It’ll make everyone better off. Until that time use the “ignore feature” that everybody already has built in and just don’t pay any attention or make any response to people you don’t want to listen to.
The above said, I still would mostly avoid replying to Alicorn—or Bob or Alice or whatever the euphemism is supposed to be—if she happened to personally ask me to. Not out of obligation but because I do care to some degree about the preferences of others and also am aware of the cost associated with engaging in public conflict without good reason. (Sometimes I choose to pay that cost, but not always.) I would still reply when there was a position I particularly desired to oppose and when I did so my reply would clearly be addressing the audience and not personally with Ali-Bob-Corn. But if there wasn’t a strong need to comment directly on a particular statement I would make my contributions to the conversation via particularly carefully constructed sibling comments and to whatever extent possible draw the attention of the conversation away from the Ali-Bob-Corn social rival and in a direction more useful for whatever my goals happened to be at the time.
Agreed. Especially when you don’t know the context of the discussion and it gives the feeling of LW being about a small clique of people and their issues, rather than actually talking about interesting things.
In general the site runs really well, all the stuff recently about not feeding trolls or filtering out newer people seems unnecessary and counterproductive.
Agreed. Especially when you don’t know the context of the discussion and it gives the feeling of LW being about a small clique of people and their issues, rather than actually talking about interesting things.
I would think that being anchored by a strong (possibly uncharacteristic) recent event would make one’s judgment worse, which is (part of!) why I avoided giving that context, and said as much.
I consider meta discussion in general tiresome, and meta discussion that is being used as a code for personal disputes particularly tiresome.
Its not a matter of judgement as a matter of what I am interesting in discussing and what I am in favour of seeing on LessWrong. For example, I could engage in a discussion of literary theory without bias, but don’t particularly want to do so, and don’t think LessWrong would be the place to do so. I would be especially averse to such a discussion if it was being used as some sort of proxy for a dispute between two people. There are other places to discuss literary theory, and other better ways to resolve personal disputes.
If I see non-standard, extreme methods of community forum administration, and I wish to stop it or make it consistent, I have two options:
1) I can discuss the merit of the policy in the abstract, divorced from any particular instance.
2) I can discuss it with specific reference to the most recent events, thus rebooting that discussion and escalating it to a flamewar (or a worse flamewar if it’s already one)
No matter which way I go, you can come up with a reason why I did the stupidest/most inflammatory method. So, your comment doesn’t tell me a lot about what I should do instead—unless your position really is, “That’s a great policy, don’t bother even talking about it.”
Or perhaps that was the game—if I argue the abstract, you accuse me of being passive-aggressive about the particular; and if I argue the particular, you accuse me of rekindling and widening the existing drama. Either way, potentially abusive moderation gets a free pass.
The hard part: tell me what I should have done, that would met with your non-disapproval.
I sympathise with the problem as you state it, but don’t know enough about the particular circumstances to know if that is a fair summary or what you would be best doing about it.
Personally I would have preferred if you had mentioned the context in the original post in something like the format of: This thing happened [link and explanation], are we ok with this form of moderation being the norm on here?
Describing the issue in a very abstracted way gives an impression of subterfuge, and makes people feel excluded from the discussion.
I don’t disagree with any of that; I just don’t know if I’d get as much criticism had I done it that way, or if I’d just be told, “HOW DARE YOU SPREAD THAT CONFLICT TO THE REST OF THE SITE YOU F***ING TERRORIST!”
I tend to downvote people who don’t seem to be acting effectively toward their perceived objectives.
Really? Why?
Suppose I have the goal of convincing LW to stop thinking about FAI. So I write a brilliant article on the dangers of uFAI. The utter disconnect between the goal and the article means you downvote?
That’s a different position that downvoting because you don’t approve the political move.
There’s not (last I checked) a community consensus on the issue, and I’d rather isolate the meta-discussion to its own thread, rather than splattered all over anywhere Alicorn posts a comment.
An ignore feature would indeed be a significant improvement. I’m not convinced that it’s strictly necessary or sufficient, but I do think that it would be better to do than not.
I downvoted this post (with the implied “despite prominently opposing Alicorn’s behaviors when they occured” intended to lend at least some degree of emphasis). We didn’t need it. Meta crap is tiresome, doesn’t need a new post ever time and that particular subject had already played itself out in the immediate context of the conflict in question. (I downvote most other meta threads too, so this isn’t specific.)
I also don’t think making this post was the politically optimal move for Silas to make. I tend to downvote people who don’t seem to be acting effectively toward their perceived objectives.
Oh, and what the hell, I may as well give an actual answer while I’m here:
Never. Impement a jolly ignore feature already. It’ll make everyone better off. Until that time use the “ignore feature” that everybody already has built in and just don’t pay any attention or make any response to people you don’t want to listen to.
The above said, I still would mostly avoid replying to Alicorn—or Bob or Alice or whatever the euphemism is supposed to be—if she happened to personally ask me to. Not out of obligation but because I do care to some degree about the preferences of others and also am aware of the cost associated with engaging in public conflict without good reason. (Sometimes I choose to pay that cost, but not always.) I would still reply when there was a position I particularly desired to oppose and when I did so my reply would clearly be addressing the audience and not personally with Ali-Bob-Corn. But if there wasn’t a strong need to comment directly on a particular statement I would make my contributions to the conversation via particularly carefully constructed sibling comments and to whatever extent possible draw the attention of the conversation away from the Ali-Bob-Corn social rival and in a direction more useful for whatever my goals happened to be at the time.
Agreed. Especially when you don’t know the context of the discussion and it gives the feeling of LW being about a small clique of people and their issues, rather than actually talking about interesting things.
In general the site runs really well, all the stuff recently about not feeding trolls or filtering out newer people seems unnecessary and counterproductive.
I would think that being anchored by a strong (possibly uncharacteristic) recent event would make one’s judgment worse, which is (part of!) why I avoided giving that context, and said as much.
I consider meta discussion in general tiresome, and meta discussion that is being used as a code for personal disputes particularly tiresome.
Its not a matter of judgement as a matter of what I am interesting in discussing and what I am in favour of seeing on LessWrong. For example, I could engage in a discussion of literary theory without bias, but don’t particularly want to do so, and don’t think LessWrong would be the place to do so. I would be especially averse to such a discussion if it was being used as some sort of proxy for a dispute between two people. There are other places to discuss literary theory, and other better ways to resolve personal disputes.
If I see non-standard, extreme methods of community forum administration, and I wish to stop it or make it consistent, I have two options:
1) I can discuss the merit of the policy in the abstract, divorced from any particular instance.
2) I can discuss it with specific reference to the most recent events, thus rebooting that discussion and escalating it to a flamewar (or a worse flamewar if it’s already one)
No matter which way I go, you can come up with a reason why I did the stupidest/most inflammatory method. So, your comment doesn’t tell me a lot about what I should do instead—unless your position really is, “That’s a great policy, don’t bother even talking about it.”
Or perhaps that was the game—if I argue the abstract, you accuse me of being passive-aggressive about the particular; and if I argue the particular, you accuse me of rekindling and widening the existing drama. Either way, potentially abusive moderation gets a free pass.
The hard part: tell me what I should have done, that would met with your non-disapproval.
I sympathise with the problem as you state it, but don’t know enough about the particular circumstances to know if that is a fair summary or what you would be best doing about it.
Personally I would have preferred if you had mentioned the context in the original post in something like the format of: This thing happened [link and explanation], are we ok with this form of moderation being the norm on here?
Describing the issue in a very abstracted way gives an impression of subterfuge, and makes people feel excluded from the discussion.
I don’t disagree with any of that; I just don’t know if I’d get as much criticism had I done it that way, or if I’d just be told, “HOW DARE YOU SPREAD THAT CONFLICT TO THE REST OF THE SITE YOU F***ING TERRORIST!”
(My estimate is that you were wise to refrain from providing explicit references.)
Really? Why?
Suppose I have the goal of convincing LW to stop thinking about FAI. So I write a brilliant article on the dangers of uFAI. The utter disconnect between the goal and the article means you downvote?
That’s a different position that downvoting because you don’t approve the political move.
Oh, wow. I’d totally forgotten that whole thing.
Oops. I feel bad about fanning the flames, now.
Fanning flames is generally a bad policy for paper machines...
I’m not that kind of paper machine. What do you think I am, Clippy’s older brother? Jeesh.
There’s not (last I checked) a community consensus on the issue, and I’d rather isolate the meta-discussion to its own thread, rather than splattered all over anywhere Alicorn posts a comment.
An ignore feature would indeed be a significant improvement. I’m not convinced that it’s strictly necessary or sufficient, but I do think that it would be better to do than not.