The concept that some things exist beyond an event horizon.
For example, you can only find out what it’s like after death by dying, and you can’t come back. For many people, opiates like heroin are a permanent shift, and there’s no undoing the shift; some recovered addicts report that it takes active effort every day for the rest of their lives.
If your son doesn’t yet get that some things can only be learned about or understood as a result of crossing a line that can’t be uncrossed, then it’s going to be hard to even talk about the potential danger.
Having that conceptual bucket is useful if you want to then go find out whether, and which, drugs are of that type, which allows one to make an as-informed-as-possible decision before experimenting.
I think this comment is particularly relevant to psychedelics, but also to drugs like amphetamines and cannabis. There are aspects of my experiences with these drugs that I cannot articulate to a potential user.
Amongst drug users, it’s my experience that there is a great deal of specialized language that is difficult, if not impossible, to truly understand without yourself having had the experiences that the language originates from. However, its easy for prospective users to believe they understand the language being spoken, and to believe they have an understanding of the risks involved with certain drugs.
Your son sounds like an extremely clever young adult; but also extremely overconfident. When I was young I was extremely overconfident. My overconfidence led to me disrespecting the substance. Disrespecting the substance resulted in me having a very bad time. The only confident statement I can make now is that I am a broken person as the direct result of drug use; in ways that I never imagined I could be.
I thought I had done a great deal of research, but in fact, it takes years to grasp the available literature, which itself is woefully inadequate. Not only do I still not grasp the scope of the risks, but it seems to me that no one does. Neuroscience is still in it’s nascent stage, and its a frightful experience when you realize the ‘adults in the room’ don’t know how to fix you.
If I were you, I would seek to find out exactly what he wants out of these potential drug experiences. What is his end game? What drugs does he think will take him to that end game, and why? What alternative, safer paths might lead to the same destination?
Request permission to quote pieces of this comment in an upcoming essay and (if permission given) want to know what sort of attribution you want (none, username, real name, etc).
I think this comment is an important point, and I’m putting my ideas here because I think they’re related.
I claim there’s a survivorship bias in the results of [amphetamine/LSD/heroin] use that are published on the internet. You can imagine that if someone has a very negative experience with heroin, they won’t be in any shape to post their experience on an online forum (typically places for high-income, well-off persons).
Similarly, someone who tries heroin once and regrets it also likely wouldn’t post on the internet. It doesn’t provide a difference from most people’s general perception of drugs, and it aligns with most research studies. These types of slight negative experiences won’t be found because the internet (and LessWrong) selects for unique/uncommon ideas.
Therefore, if strong negative experiences and slight negative experiences are less common on the internet, you should find some way to still show those perspectives. Published research studies probably show a statistical analysis, but anecdotal and individual stories are typically much more impactful, especially on a teenage brain.
You (concerned_dad) mentioned briefly in another comment that you were considering taking your son to a rehab center. I think this is a particularly good idea, and (assuming your son is somewhat open minded) will help show a different set of experiences that he won’t find elsewhere. My opinion is that you should concede some points to your son (e.g. admitting that LSD can have positive effects, but emphasizing the possible negative outcomes) before visiting.
It strikes me that HPMOR’s depiction of how the wizarding world handles dangerous secrets reflects an idea like this, in case that’s useful as an attention seed.
One thing that seems super important:
The concept that some things exist beyond an event horizon.
For example, you can only find out what it’s like after death by dying, and you can’t come back. For many people, opiates like heroin are a permanent shift, and there’s no undoing the shift; some recovered addicts report that it takes active effort every day for the rest of their lives.
If your son doesn’t yet get that some things can only be learned about or understood as a result of crossing a line that can’t be uncrossed, then it’s going to be hard to even talk about the potential danger.
Having that conceptual bucket is useful if you want to then go find out whether, and which, drugs are of that type, which allows one to make an as-informed-as-possible decision before experimenting.
I think this comment is particularly relevant to psychedelics, but also to drugs like amphetamines and cannabis. There are aspects of my experiences with these drugs that I cannot articulate to a potential user.
Amongst drug users, it’s my experience that there is a great deal of specialized language that is difficult, if not impossible, to truly understand without yourself having had the experiences that the language originates from. However, its easy for prospective users to believe they understand the language being spoken, and to believe they have an understanding of the risks involved with certain drugs.
Your son sounds like an extremely clever young adult; but also extremely overconfident. When I was young I was extremely overconfident. My overconfidence led to me disrespecting the substance. Disrespecting the substance resulted in me having a very bad time. The only confident statement I can make now is that I am a broken person as the direct result of drug use; in ways that I never imagined I could be.
I thought I had done a great deal of research, but in fact, it takes years to grasp the available literature, which itself is woefully inadequate. Not only do I still not grasp the scope of the risks, but it seems to me that no one does. Neuroscience is still in it’s nascent stage, and its a frightful experience when you realize the ‘adults in the room’ don’t know how to fix you.
If I were you, I would seek to find out exactly what he wants out of these potential drug experiences. What is his end game? What drugs does he think will take him to that end game, and why? What alternative, safer paths might lead to the same destination?
Request permission to quote pieces of this comment in an upcoming essay and (if permission given) want to know what sort of attribution you want (none, username, real name, etc).
I think this comment is an important point, and I’m putting my ideas here because I think they’re related.
I claim there’s a survivorship bias in the results of [amphetamine/LSD/heroin] use that are published on the internet. You can imagine that if someone has a very negative experience with heroin, they won’t be in any shape to post their experience on an online forum (typically places for high-income, well-off persons).
Similarly, someone who tries heroin once and regrets it also likely wouldn’t post on the internet. It doesn’t provide a difference from most people’s general perception of drugs, and it aligns with most research studies. These types of slight negative experiences won’t be found because the internet (and LessWrong) selects for unique/uncommon ideas.
Therefore, if strong negative experiences and slight negative experiences are less common on the internet, you should find some way to still show those perspectives. Published research studies probably show a statistical analysis, but anecdotal and individual stories are typically much more impactful, especially on a teenage brain.
You (concerned_dad) mentioned briefly in another comment that you were considering taking your son to a rehab center. I think this is a particularly good idea, and (assuming your son is somewhat open minded) will help show a different set of experiences that he won’t find elsewhere. My opinion is that you should concede some points to your son (e.g. admitting that LSD can have positive effects, but emphasizing the possible negative outcomes) before visiting.
It strikes me that HPMOR’s depiction of how the wizarding world handles dangerous secrets reflects an idea like this, in case that’s useful as an attention seed.