I think if someone wasn’t indignant about Alice’s ideas, but did just disagree with Alice and think she was wrong, we might see lots of comments that look something like: “Hmm, I think there’s actually a 80% probability that I can’t be any more ethical than I currently am, even if I did try to self-improve or self-modify. I ran a test where I tried contributing 5% more of my time while simultaneously starting therapy and increasing the amount of social support that I felt okay asking for, and in my journal I noted an increase in my sleep needs, which I thought was probably a symptom of burnout. When I tried contributing 10% more, the problem got a lot worse. So it’s possible that there’s some unknown intervention that would let me do this (that’s about ~15% of my 20% uncertainty), but since the ones I’ve tried haven’t worked, I’ve decided to limit my excess contributions to no more than 5% above my comfortable level.”
I think these are good habits for rationalists: using evidence, building models, remembering that 0 and 1 aren’t probabilities, testing our beliefs against the territory, etc.
Obviously I can’t force you to do any of that. But I’d like to have a better model about this, so if I saw comments that offered me useful evidence that I could update on, then I’d be excited about the possibility of changing my mind and improving my world-model.
I think if someone wasn’t indignant about Alice’s ideas, but did just disagree with Alice and think she was wrong, we might see lots of comments that look something like: …
The disagreement isn’t with Alice’s ideas, it’s with Alice’s claims to have any right to impose her judgment on people who aren’t interested in hearing it. What you describe here is instead an acceptance of Alice’s premises. I’m pointing out that it’s possible to disagree with those premises entirely.
I agree that “using evidence, building models, remembering that 0 and 1 aren’t probabilities, testing our beliefs against the territory, etc.” are good habits. But they’re habits that it’s good to deploy of your own volition. If someone is trying to pressure you into doing these things—especially someone who, like Alice, quite transparently does not have your best interests in mind, and is acting in the service of ulterior motives, and who (again, like Alice) is deceptively clothing these motives in a guise of trying to help you conform to your own stated values—then the first thing you should do is tell them to fuck off (employing as much or as little tact in this as you deem fit), and only then should you consider whether and what techniques of epistemic rationality to apply to the situation.
It is a foolish, limited, and ultimately doomed sort of rationality, that ignores interpersonal conflicts when figuring out what the world is like, and what to do about it.
The point of the post is to be about ideas. Alice is only there as a framework for presenting the post’s ideas.
If Alice is expressing the ideas rudely, that’s just a deficiency in how the post presents them. Saying “I’d ignore Alice because she’s rude” is missing the point; it’s as if the post had Alice be an angel and you replied “I’d ignore Alice because angels don’t exist”.
The proper reaction is “the post is flawed in that it attributes the ideas to a rude character, but in order to engage with the thesis of the post I should ignore this flaw and address the ideas anyway”.
In this case, the ideas seem to be linked quite closely with the behavior of the ‘Alice’ character, so attempting to reply to a hypothetical alternate version of the post where the ideas are (somehow) the same but Alice is very polite… seems strange and unproductive. (For one thing, if Alice were polite, the whole conversation wouldn’t happen.)
I think you lack imagination if you think that Alice can’t express those ideas without being rude. For instance, “Alice” and “Bob” could be a metaphor for conflicting impulses and motives inside your own head. Trying to decide between Alice-type ideas and Bob-type ideas doesn’t mean that you’re being rude to yourself.
I think you lack imagination if you think that Alice can’t express those ideas without being rude.
Yep, could be. Show me a rewritten version of this dialogue which supports your suggestion, and we’ll talk. I think it would be different in instructive ways (not just incidental ones).
Thinking to yourself about the ideas expressed in the post by Alice would not mean you are being rude to yourself.
Well, perhaps “being rude to yourself” is an odd way of putting it, but something like this is precisely why I wouldn’t think these things to myself. I have no particular interest in conjuring a mental Insanity Wolf!
I believe that people who agreed with Alice and had worked to increase their capacity would be more indignant, and that’s reason enough to never use this approach even if the goal is good. People hate having their work dismissed.
Huh, interesting! I definitely count myself as agreeing with Alice in some regards—like, I think I should work harder than I currently do, and I think it’s bad that I don’t, and I’ve definitely done some amount to increase my capacity, and I’m really interested in finding more ways to increase my capacity. But I don’t feel super indignant about being told that I should donate more or work harder—though I might feel pretty indignant if Alice is being mean about it! I’d describe my emotions as being closer to anxiety, and a very urgent sense of curiosity, and a desire for help and support.
(Planned posts later in the sequence cover things like what I want Alice to do differently, so I won’t write up the whole thing in a comment.)
I can picture ways people could bring up capacity-improvement-for-the-greater-good that I’d be really excited about. It’s something I care about and most people aren’t interested in. It’s the way Alice (in this story, and by default in the real world) brings it up I think is counterproductive.
I think if someone wasn’t indignant about Alice’s ideas, but did just disagree with Alice and think she was wrong, we might see lots of comments that look something like: “Hmm, I think there’s actually a 80% probability that I can’t be any more ethical than I currently am, even if I did try to self-improve or self-modify. I ran a test where I tried contributing 5% more of my time while simultaneously starting therapy and increasing the amount of social support that I felt okay asking for, and in my journal I noted an increase in my sleep needs, which I thought was probably a symptom of burnout. When I tried contributing 10% more, the problem got a lot worse. So it’s possible that there’s some unknown intervention that would let me do this (that’s about ~15% of my 20% uncertainty), but since the ones I’ve tried haven’t worked, I’ve decided to limit my excess contributions to no more than 5% above my comfortable level.”
I think these are good habits for rationalists: using evidence, building models, remembering that 0 and 1 aren’t probabilities, testing our beliefs against the territory, etc.
Obviously I can’t force you to do any of that. But I’d like to have a better model about this, so if I saw comments that offered me useful evidence that I could update on, then I’d be excited about the possibility of changing my mind and improving my world-model.
The disagreement isn’t with Alice’s ideas, it’s with Alice’s claims to have any right to impose her judgment on people who aren’t interested in hearing it. What you describe here is instead an acceptance of Alice’s premises. I’m pointing out that it’s possible to disagree with those premises entirely.
I agree that “using evidence, building models, remembering that 0 and 1 aren’t probabilities, testing our beliefs against the territory, etc.” are good habits. But they’re habits that it’s good to deploy of your own volition. If someone is trying to pressure you into doing these things—especially someone who, like Alice, quite transparently does not have your best interests in mind, and is acting in the service of ulterior motives, and who (again, like Alice) is deceptively clothing these motives in a guise of trying to help you conform to your own stated values—then the first thing you should do is tell them to fuck off (employing as much or as little tact in this as you deem fit), and only then should you consider whether and what techniques of epistemic rationality to apply to the situation.
It is a foolish, limited, and ultimately doomed sort of rationality, that ignores interpersonal conflicts when figuring out what the world is like, and what to do about it.
The point of the post is to be about ideas. Alice is only there as a framework for presenting the post’s ideas.
If Alice is expressing the ideas rudely, that’s just a deficiency in how the post presents them. Saying “I’d ignore Alice because she’s rude” is missing the point; it’s as if the post had Alice be an angel and you replied “I’d ignore Alice because angels don’t exist”.
The proper reaction is “the post is flawed in that it attributes the ideas to a rude character, but in order to engage with the thesis of the post I should ignore this flaw and address the ideas anyway”.
In this case, the ideas seem to be linked quite closely with the behavior of the ‘Alice’ character, so attempting to reply to a hypothetical alternate version of the post where the ideas are (somehow) the same but Alice is very polite… seems strange and unproductive. (For one thing, if Alice were polite, the whole conversation wouldn’t happen.)
I think you lack imagination if you think that Alice can’t express those ideas without being rude. For instance, “Alice” and “Bob” could be a metaphor for conflicting impulses and motives inside your own head. Trying to decide between Alice-type ideas and Bob-type ideas doesn’t mean that you’re being rude to yourself.
Yep, could be. Show me a rewritten version of this dialogue which supports your suggestion, and we’ll talk. I think it would be different in instructive ways (not just incidental ones).
Well, perhaps “being rude to yourself” is an odd way of putting it, but something like this is precisely why I wouldn’t think these things to myself. I have no particular interest in conjuring a mental Insanity Wolf!
“Should I do (list of things said by Alice in the post)? Or should I do (list of things said by Bob in the original post)?”
I believe that people who agreed with Alice and had worked to increase their capacity would be more indignant, and that’s reason enough to never use this approach even if the goal is good. People hate having their work dismissed.
Huh, interesting! I definitely count myself as agreeing with Alice in some regards—like, I think I should work harder than I currently do, and I think it’s bad that I don’t, and I’ve definitely done some amount to increase my capacity, and I’m really interested in finding more ways to increase my capacity. But I don’t feel super indignant about being told that I should donate more or work harder—though I might feel pretty indignant if Alice is being mean about it! I’d describe my emotions as being closer to anxiety, and a very urgent sense of curiosity, and a desire for help and support.
(Planned posts later in the sequence cover things like what I want Alice to do differently, so I won’t write up the whole thing in a comment.)
I can picture ways people could bring up capacity-improvement-for-the-greater-good that I’d be really excited about. It’s something I care about and most people aren’t interested in. It’s the way Alice (in this story, and by default in the real world) brings it up I think is counterproductive.