Harris says in his Q and A that people who think stopping gay marriage is a major issue are “not worth listening to.”
That kind of gets to the heart of his argument. He’s conceding that his argument has limits. If you’re going to say that science can give us answers about morality, you have to declare that some people are not worth listening to. In his case, this means non-humanists. Harris, and I, believe that what matters morally is the well-being of conscious creatures. The people who don’t—the people who think some races are vermin to be exterminated, for example—are completely incompatible with our moral system. We can’t listen to them, and we can’t persuade them; we can only stop them from doing harm.
You can talk to humanists by discussing consequences: such and such a plan would save lives or end them, cause happiness or misery, wealth or poverty, health or sickness, flourishing or limitation. You can’t really talk to a non-humanist. You can’t prove him wrong, by science or philosophy or anything else. If he doesn’t care about people, you can’t make him care. All you can do is say “I’m a humanist, and this makes you my enemy.”
[Harris is] conceding that his argument has limits. If you’re going to say that science can give us answers about morality, you have to declare that some people are not worth listening to. In his case, this means non-humanists. Harris, and I, believe that what matters morally is the well-being of conscious creatures. The people who don’t—the people who think some races are vermin to be exterminated, for example—are completely incompatible with our moral system. We can’t listen to them, and we can’t persuade them; we can only stop them from doing harm.
I’m not sure if I’m reading you correctly, but you seem to be implying that when one embraces Harris’s worldview, the only people who have any serious disagreements (“non-humanists”) will be various insane extremists. But this is completely false. Historically, there have been numerous human social orders that are not evil or crazy by any reasonable standard, and others might exist in the future. Reasonable and non-evil people will ultimately disagree on which exact one they favor, and there is no way to solve that conflict of values and preferences except by figuring out some practical way to disagree and let good fences make good neighbors, or by having one view imposed on others by force (and perhaps, in the long run, ideological propaganda).
There is no way that you can construct an argument based on vague claims like “what matters morally is the well-being of conscious creatures” that will provide valid evidence, let alone a valid proof, for even the roughest outlines of Harris’s ideology. It’s all vapid talk disguised as rational argument (or to make things even worse, as “science”).
The point is, if you want universal morality, you have to exclude some points of view. If you want to be Sam Harris, you have to declare you won’t listen to some people. If you want to claim that science can resolve questions of morality, it can only do that among people who already agree on a number of fundamental values. Nobody else counts; you have to override them, perhaps by force.
Because I’m in a bad mood right now, I say “Kill ’em all,” even if that leaves about five survivors. lol.
The point is, if you want universal morality, you have to exclude some points of view. If you want to be Sam Harris, you have to declare you won’t listen to some people. If you want to claim that science can resolve questions of morality, it can only do that among people who already agree on a number of fundamental values. Nobody else counts; you have to override them, perhaps by force.
That is indeed so. But the additional trouble is that arguments based on “the well-being of conscious creatures” and such fuzzy concepts won’t even be able to provide a clearly defined position with which people could genuinely agree. All they will provide is a rallying point for some existing ideological forces that will gather around it guided by emotion or interest.
Moreover, once “science” is taken to be authoritative for resolving moral questions, then in any realistic human society, it is only a matter of time before the very notion of “science” degenerates into a fig-leaf for ideology and venal interest. (Which has in fact already happened to a large extent in some fields that modern governments rely on as an authoritative guide for policy.) Thomas Hobbes put it best:
[The] doctrine of right and wrong is perpetually disputed, both by the pen and the sword: whereas the doctrine of lines and figures is not so, because men care not in that subject what be truth, as a thing that crosses no man’s ambition, profit, or lust. For I doubt not, but if it had been a thing contrary to any man’s right of dominion, or to the interest of men that have dominion, that the three angles of a triangle should be equal to two angles of a square, that doctrine should have been, if not disputed, yet by the burning of all books of geometry suppressed, as far as he whom it concerned was able.
Harris’s inability write a whole book about this topic without being able to grasp this essential point is, in my view, enough to dismiss him as an altogether incompetent thinker.
But when do I get to kill people?
Can I start with rednecks, people named Vladimir, and the sadistic bastard who wrote my homework?
Seriously, I think you and I agree—Sam Harris can’t really run a shortcut around all moral debate the way he’s claiming he can. All he’s really doing is telling people who share a certain set of values that they should go ahead and act according to those values because everyone else is heinous and “not worth listening to.”
Harris says in his Q and A that people who think stopping gay marriage is a major issue are “not worth listening to.”
That kind of gets to the heart of his argument. He’s conceding that his argument has limits. If you’re going to say that science can give us answers about morality, you have to declare that some people are not worth listening to. In his case, this means non-humanists. Harris, and I, believe that what matters morally is the well-being of conscious creatures. The people who don’t—the people who think some races are vermin to be exterminated, for example—are completely incompatible with our moral system. We can’t listen to them, and we can’t persuade them; we can only stop them from doing harm.
You can talk to humanists by discussing consequences: such and such a plan would save lives or end them, cause happiness or misery, wealth or poverty, health or sickness, flourishing or limitation. You can’t really talk to a non-humanist. You can’t prove him wrong, by science or philosophy or anything else. If he doesn’t care about people, you can’t make him care. All you can do is say “I’m a humanist, and this makes you my enemy.”
SarahC:
I’m not sure if I’m reading you correctly, but you seem to be implying that when one embraces Harris’s worldview, the only people who have any serious disagreements (“non-humanists”) will be various insane extremists. But this is completely false. Historically, there have been numerous human social orders that are not evil or crazy by any reasonable standard, and others might exist in the future. Reasonable and non-evil people will ultimately disagree on which exact one they favor, and there is no way to solve that conflict of values and preferences except by figuring out some practical way to disagree and let good fences make good neighbors, or by having one view imposed on others by force (and perhaps, in the long run, ideological propaganda).
There is no way that you can construct an argument based on vague claims like “what matters morally is the well-being of conscious creatures” that will provide valid evidence, let alone a valid proof, for even the roughest outlines of Harris’s ideology. It’s all vapid talk disguised as rational argument (or to make things even worse, as “science”).
Nope, they won’t be crazy extremists.
The point is, if you want universal morality, you have to exclude some points of view. If you want to be Sam Harris, you have to declare you won’t listen to some people. If you want to claim that science can resolve questions of morality, it can only do that among people who already agree on a number of fundamental values. Nobody else counts; you have to override them, perhaps by force.
Because I’m in a bad mood right now, I say “Kill ’em all,” even if that leaves about five survivors. lol.
SarahC:
That is indeed so. But the additional trouble is that arguments based on “the well-being of conscious creatures” and such fuzzy concepts won’t even be able to provide a clearly defined position with which people could genuinely agree. All they will provide is a rallying point for some existing ideological forces that will gather around it guided by emotion or interest.
Moreover, once “science” is taken to be authoritative for resolving moral questions, then in any realistic human society, it is only a matter of time before the very notion of “science” degenerates into a fig-leaf for ideology and venal interest. (Which has in fact already happened to a large extent in some fields that modern governments rely on as an authoritative guide for policy.) Thomas Hobbes put it best:
Harris’s inability write a whole book about this topic without being able to grasp this essential point is, in my view, enough to dismiss him as an altogether incompetent thinker.
But when do I get to kill people? Can I start with rednecks, people named Vladimir, and the sadistic bastard who wrote my homework?
Seriously, I think you and I agree—Sam Harris can’t really run a shortcut around all moral debate the way he’s claiming he can. All he’s really doing is telling people who share a certain set of values that they should go ahead and act according to those values because everyone else is heinous and “not worth listening to.”