Dust specks – I completely disagree with Eliezer’s argument here. The hole in Yudkowsky’s logic, I believe, is not only the curved utility function, but also the main fact that discomfort cannot be added like numbers. The dust speck incident is momentary. You barely notice it, you blink, its gone, and you forget about it for the rest of your life. Torture, on the other hand, leaves lasting emotional damage on the human psyche. Futhermore, discomfort is different than pain. If, for example the hypothetical replaced the torture with 10000 people getting a non-painful itch for the rest of their life, I would agree with Eliezer’s theory. But pain, I believe and this is where my logic might be weak, is different than discomfort, and Eliezer treats pain as just an extreme discomfort.
Another argument would be the instantaneous utilitarian framework. Let us now accept the assumption that pain is merely extreme discomfort.
Eliezer’s framework is that the total “discomfort” in Scenario 1 is less than that in scenario 2. And if you simply add up the discomfit-points, then maybe such a conclusion would be reached.
But now consider, during that 50 year time period, we take an arbitrary time Ti, more than say 2 minutes from the start.
The total discomfort in Scenario 1 is some Pi1.
The total discomfort in Scenario 2 is 0.
This will go on until the end of the 50 year time period.
Scenario 1: Discomfort|T=ti = P(ti)
Scenario 2: Discomfort = 0.
Integrating both functions with respect to dt.
Total Discomfort in Scenario1 – INTEG(P(t)dt)
Total Discomfort in Scenario 2 – 0.
Put in terms of a non-mathematician, the pain of the torture is experience continuously. The pain of the dust is momentary.
One can argue the 0*infinity argument – that the small number produced by integration can be negated by the huge 3^^^3… However, this can be explained by my earlier thesis that pain is different than discomfort.
I could measure the Kantian societal “categorical imperative” as my third piece of logic, but everyone else has already mentioned it.
If there is any error in judgment made, please let me know.
When you say that pain is “fundamentally different” than discomfort, do you mean to imply that it’s a strictly more important consideration? If so, your theory is similar to Asimov’s One Law of Robotics, and you should stop wasting your time thinking about “discomfort”, since it’s infinitely less important than pain.
Dust specks – I completely disagree with Eliezer’s argument here. The hole in Yudkowsky’s logic, I believe, is not only the curved utility function, but also the main fact that discomfort cannot be added like numbers. The dust speck incident is momentary. You barely notice it, you blink, its gone, and you forget about it for the rest of your life. Torture, on the other hand, leaves lasting emotional damage on the human psyche. Futhermore, discomfort is different than pain. If, for example the hypothetical replaced the torture with 10000 people getting a non-painful itch for the rest of their life, I would agree with Eliezer’s theory. But pain, I believe and this is where my logic might be weak, is different than discomfort, and Eliezer treats pain as just an extreme discomfort. Another argument would be the instantaneous utilitarian framework. Let us now accept the assumption that pain is merely extreme discomfort. Eliezer’s framework is that the total “discomfort” in Scenario 1 is less than that in scenario 2. And if you simply add up the discomfit-points, then maybe such a conclusion would be reached. But now consider, during that 50 year time period, we take an arbitrary time Ti, more than say 2 minutes from the start. The total discomfort in Scenario 1 is some Pi1. The total discomfort in Scenario 2 is 0. This will go on until the end of the 50 year time period. Scenario 1: Discomfort|T=ti = P(ti) Scenario 2: Discomfort = 0. Integrating both functions with respect to dt. Total Discomfort in Scenario1 – INTEG(P(t)dt) Total Discomfort in Scenario 2 – 0. Put in terms of a non-mathematician, the pain of the torture is experience continuously. The pain of the dust is momentary.
One can argue the 0*infinity argument – that the small number produced by integration can be negated by the huge 3^^^3… However, this can be explained by my earlier thesis that pain is different than discomfort. I could measure the Kantian societal “categorical imperative” as my third piece of logic, but everyone else has already mentioned it. If there is any error in judgment made, please let me know.
When you say that pain is “fundamentally different” than discomfort, do you mean to imply that it’s a strictly more important consideration? If so, your theory is similar to Asimov’s One Law of Robotics, and you should stop wasting your time thinking about “discomfort”, since it’s infinitely less important than pain.
Stratified utility functions don’t work.