Are you implying that the experience of a workaholic on subsistence wages is the maximum level of suffering achievable? If so, I strongly disagree. I can think of quite a few horrible conditions I would not trade it for, here’s one: Complex Regional Pain Syndrome
This is why I say “most” and not “all”, since humans seem to be quite willing to accept conditions where their preferences are frustrated more often than they are satisfied, hence the measure of all possible humans whose lives are worth living seems greater than the measure of all possible humans whose lives are not worth living, as measured by the individual human’s desire to live such a life versus not existing.
I find it interesting that you apply this argument to pigs as well. The view that most farm-raised pigs have lives worth living implies that you should eat as much pork as you want (or even more) since your purchases would result in more pigs being raised for food. If this applied to pigs even on factory farms, I’m not sure why you would assume the opposite about chickens.
Three answers. One, it’s more important to me to signal virtue for reasons I laid out than directly act on the consequences of my preference calculus in order to maximize medium to long term gains (I can do more of what I want by getting others to eat vegetarian than I can by simply maximizing pork consumption and minimizing all other foods). Two, there’s a lot of complex tradeoffs going on here that aren’t fully explained because otherwise the simple outcome of this reasoning is cannibalism. Three, chickens, from what I can tell, would commit suicide by one means or another, and do when they are kept in similar conditions to what they often are but precautions like caging, beak cutting, and talon cutting are not taken.
I have a strong prior that someone who tells me that for principled reasons I should do X, but by those same principles he only needs to do Y, where Y is much more convenient to him than X is to me, is affected by cognitive biases and should be ignored. It’s easy to overestimate the utility gain to the world from doing X and underestimate the loss to me specifically from doing X, when you don’t have to do X yourself.
“You must follow vegetarianism, but I don’t need to follow vegetarianism as strictly because I’m signalling” is an example of that. It is, of course, still logically possible, but that’s not the way to bet.
This also applies to global warming opponents who can take plane flights because it helps them promote global warming activism, or buy carbon credits, while I can’t take such plane flights and someone at my income level must make sacrifices that are far more personal than buying carbon credits. It also applies to effective altruists who think people should give X% of their income when at a financial stage that they themselves have not reached yet.
Sure, although I’m not telling anyone to do anything here, just laying out my own reasoning for my actions. I would prefer it if other people took some actions, but hardly think they should do those things, as in I don’t believe there is some moral argument that compels them. They can make up their own minds, though I’d like to try to influence them.
To any extent I’m trying to influence anyone it’s too, for now, share in displaying vegetarian virtue, which is what I am myself doing.
You’ve made an argument that most human lives are worth living, not that most human lives, no matter how much suffering they contain, are worth living. I suggest you remove the “no matter how much suffering they contain” part to clearly communicate your position.
Are you implying that the experience of a workaholic on subsistence wages is the maximum level of suffering achievable? If so, I strongly disagree. I can think of quite a few horrible conditions I would not trade it for, here’s one: Complex Regional Pain Syndrome
This is why I say “most” and not “all”, since humans seem to be quite willing to accept conditions where their preferences are frustrated more often than they are satisfied, hence the measure of all possible humans whose lives are worth living seems greater than the measure of all possible humans whose lives are not worth living, as measured by the individual human’s desire to live such a life versus not existing.
I find it interesting that you apply this argument to pigs as well. The view that most farm-raised pigs have lives worth living implies that you should eat as much pork as you want (or even more) since your purchases would result in more pigs being raised for food. If this applied to pigs even on factory farms, I’m not sure why you would assume the opposite about chickens.
Three answers. One, it’s more important to me to signal virtue for reasons I laid out than directly act on the consequences of my preference calculus in order to maximize medium to long term gains (I can do more of what I want by getting others to eat vegetarian than I can by simply maximizing pork consumption and minimizing all other foods). Two, there’s a lot of complex tradeoffs going on here that aren’t fully explained because otherwise the simple outcome of this reasoning is cannibalism. Three, chickens, from what I can tell, would commit suicide by one means or another, and do when they are kept in similar conditions to what they often are but precautions like caging, beak cutting, and talon cutting are not taken.
I have a strong prior that someone who tells me that for principled reasons I should do X, but by those same principles he only needs to do Y, where Y is much more convenient to him than X is to me, is affected by cognitive biases and should be ignored. It’s easy to overestimate the utility gain to the world from doing X and underestimate the loss to me specifically from doing X, when you don’t have to do X yourself.
“You must follow vegetarianism, but I don’t need to follow vegetarianism as strictly because I’m signalling” is an example of that. It is, of course, still logically possible, but that’s not the way to bet.
This also applies to global warming opponents who can take plane flights because it helps them promote global warming activism, or buy carbon credits, while I can’t take such plane flights and someone at my income level must make sacrifices that are far more personal than buying carbon credits. It also applies to effective altruists who think people should give X% of their income when at a financial stage that they themselves have not reached yet.
Sure, although I’m not telling anyone to do anything here, just laying out my own reasoning for my actions. I would prefer it if other people took some actions, but hardly think they should do those things, as in I don’t believe there is some moral argument that compels them. They can make up their own minds, though I’d like to try to influence them.
To any extent I’m trying to influence anyone it’s too, for now, share in displaying vegetarian virtue, which is what I am myself doing.
You’ve made an argument that most human lives are worth living, not that most human lives, no matter how much suffering they contain, are worth living. I suggest you remove the “no matter how much suffering they contain” part to clearly communicate your position.