How much information do you think is present in daily language? Can you give me specific examples?
You may be making a similar point to George Orwell and his newspeak in 1984, that language ultimately decides what you can think about. In that case, languages may have a lot of cultural-values information.
I’m not sure. My hunch is that yes, it’s possible to learn a language without learning too much about the values of those who speak it. I don’t think Germans engage in shadenfreude more than other cultures and I don’t think the French experience more naivete. They just have words for it and we don’t.
Yes, if you only learn the basics of the language, you will learn only the basics of the language user’s values (if any).
But the deep understanding of the language requires knowing the semantics of the words and constructions in it (including the meaning of the words “human” and “values”, btw). To understand texts you have to understand in which context their are used, etc.
Also, pretty much each human-written text carries some information about the human values. Because people only talk about the things that they see as at least somewhat important/valuable to them.
And a lot of texts are related to values much more directly. For example, each text about human relations is directly related to conflicts or alignment of particular people values.
So, if you learn the language from reading text (like LLMs do) you will pick a lot about people values on the way (like LLMs did).
Small note but I would think Germans engage in less schadenfreude than other cultures.
For a long time my favourite word used to be ‘cruelty’ specifically for its effectiveness in combating some forms of its referent.
Well by that logic Germans may experience more shadenfreude, which would presumably mean there is more shadenfreude going on in Germany than elsewhere, so I don’t think your point makes sense. You only need a word for something if it exists, especially if it’s something you encounter a lot.
It may also be possible that we use facsimiles for words by explaining their meaning with whole sentences, and only occasionally stumble upon a word that catches on and that elegantly encapsulates the concept we want to convey (like “gaslighting”). It may be a matter of probability, and it may not matter much that our language is not as efficient as it could be.
It could also be that most languages can convey 99% of the things our modern world needs it to convey, and that we are simply hung up on the rare exceptions (like shadenfreude or je ne sais quoi). If that hypothesis is true, then language does not carry much information about cultural values.
Is it possible to learn a language without learning the values of those who speak it?
How much information do you think is present in daily language? Can you give me specific examples?
You may be making a similar point to George Orwell and his newspeak in 1984, that language ultimately decides what you can think about. In that case, languages may have a lot of cultural-values information.
I’m not sure. My hunch is that yes, it’s possible to learn a language without learning too much about the values of those who speak it. I don’t think Germans engage in shadenfreude more than other cultures and I don’t think the French experience more naivete. They just have words for it and we don’t.
When we English speakers don’t have a word, we steal one.
Our beautiful bastard language!
Yes, if you only learn the basics of the language, you will learn only the basics of the language user’s values (if any).
But the deep understanding of the language requires knowing the semantics of the words and constructions in it (including the meaning of the words “human” and “values”, btw). To understand texts you have to understand in which context their are used, etc.
Also, pretty much each human-written text carries some information about the human values. Because people only talk about the things that they see as at least somewhat important/valuable to them.
And a lot of texts are related to values much more directly. For example, each text about human relations is directly related to conflicts or alignment of particular people values.
So, if you learn the language from reading text (like LLMs do) you will pick a lot about people values on the way (like LLMs did).
Small note but I would think Germans engage in less schadenfreude than other cultures. For a long time my favourite word used to be ‘cruelty’ specifically for its effectiveness in combating some forms of its referent.
Well by that logic Germans may experience more shadenfreude, which would presumably mean there is more shadenfreude going on in Germany than elsewhere, so I don’t think your point makes sense. You only need a word for something if it exists, especially if it’s something you encounter a lot.
It may also be possible that we use facsimiles for words by explaining their meaning with whole sentences, and only occasionally stumble upon a word that catches on and that elegantly encapsulates the concept we want to convey (like “gaslighting”). It may be a matter of probability, and it may not matter much that our language is not as efficient as it could be.
It could also be that most languages can convey 99% of the things our modern world needs it to convey, and that we are simply hung up on the rare exceptions (like shadenfreude or je ne sais quoi). If that hypothesis is true, then language does not carry much information about cultural values.