Um, good point. I am not sure which details you’re asking about, but I am probably happy to elaborate if you ask something more specific.
I hereby apologize for the role I played in Michael Vassar’s ostracism from the community, which AFAICT was both unjust and harmful to both the community and Michael. There’s more to say here, and I don’t yet know how to say it well. But the shortest version is that in the years leading up to my original comment Michael was criticizing me and many in the rationality and EA communities intensely, and, despite our alleged desire to aspire to rationality, I and I think many others did not like having our political foundations criticized/eroded, nor did I and I think various others like having the story I told myself to keep stably “doing my work” criticized/eroded. This, despite the fact that attempting to share reasoning and disagreements is in fact a furthering of our alleged goals and our alleged culture. The specific voiced accusations about Michael were not “but he keeps criticizing us and hurting our feelings and/or our political support” — and nevertheless I’m sure this was part of what led to me making the comment I made above (though it was not my conscious reason), and I’m sure it led to some of the rest of the ostracism he experienced as well. This isn’t the whole of the story, but it ought to have been disclosed clearly in the same way that conflicts of interest ought to be disclosed clearly. And, separately but relatedly, it is my current view that it would be all things considered much better to have Michael around talking to people in these communities, though this will bring friction.
There’s broader context I don’t know how to discuss well, which I’ll at least discuss poorly:
Should the aspiring rationality community, or any community, attempt to protect its adult members from misleading reasoning, allegedly manipulative conversational tactics, etc., via cautioning them not to talk to some people? My view at the time of my original (Feb 2019) comment was “yes”. My current view is more or less “heck no!”; protecting people from allegedly manipulative tactics, or allegedly misleading arguments, is good — but it should be done via sharing additional info, not via discouraging people from encountering info/conversations. The reason is that more info tends to be broadly helpful (and this is a relatively fool-resistant heuristic even if implemented by people who are deluded in various ways), and trusting who can figure out who ought to restrict their info-intake how seems like a doomed endeavor (and does not degrade gracefully with deludedness/corruption in the leadership). (Watching the CDC on covid helped drive this home for me. Belatedly noticing how much something-like-doublethink I had in my original beliefs about Michael and related matters also helped drive this home for me.)
Should some organizations/people within the rationality and EA communities create simplified narratives that allow many people to pull in the same direction, to feel good about each others’ donations to the same organizations, etc.? My view at the time of my original (Feb 2019) comment was “yes”; my current view is “no — and especially not via implicit or explicit pressures to restrict information-flow.” Reasons for updates same as above.
It is nevertheless the case that Michael has had a tendency to e.g. yell rather more than I would like. For an aspiring rationality community’s general “who is worth ever talking to?” list, this ought to matter much less than the above. Insofar as a given person is trying to create contexts where people reliably don’t yell or something, they’ll want to do whatever they want to do; but insofar as we’re creating a community-wide include/exclude list (as in e.g. this comment on whether to let Michael speak at SSC meetups), it is my opinion that Michael ought to be on the “include” list.
Thoughts/comments welcome, and probably helpful for getting to shared accurate pictures about any of what’s above.
There’s a bunch of different options for interacting with a person/group/information source:
Read what they write
Go to talks by them and ask a question
Talk with them on comments on their blogs
Have 1-1 online conversations with them (calls/emails)
Invite them into your home and be friends with them
Naturally there’s a difference between “telling your friend that they should ignore the CDC” and “not letting a CDC leadership staff member into your home for dinner”. I’m much more sympathetic to the latter.
Related: As a somewhat extreme example I’ve thought about in the past in other situations with other people, I think that people who have committed crimes (e.g. theft) could be great and insightful contributors to open research problems, but might belong geographically in jail and be important to not allow into my home. Especially for insightful people with unique perspectives who were intellectually productive I’d want to put in a lot of work to ensure they can bring their great contributions in ways that aren’t open to abuse or likely to leave my friends substantially hurt on some key dimension.
–––
Thx for your comment. I don’t have a clear sense from your comment what you’re trying to suggest for Michael specifically — I’ve found it quite valuable to read his Twitter, but more than that. Actually, here’s what I suspect you’re saying. I think you’re saying that the following things seem worthwhile to you: have 1-1 convos with Michael, talk to Michael at events, reply to his emails and talk with him online. And then you’re not making an active recommendation about whether to: have Michael over for dinner, have Michael stay at your house, date Michael, live with Michael, lend Michael money, start a business with Michael, etc, and you’re aiming to trust people to figure that out for themselves.
It’s not a great guess, but it’s my best (quick) guess. Thoughts?
Um, good point. I am not sure which details you’re asking about, but I am probably happy to elaborate if you ask something more specific.
I hereby apologize for the role I played in Michael Vassar’s ostracism from the community, which AFAICT was both unjust and harmful to both the community and Michael. There’s more to say here, and I don’t yet know how to say it well. But the shortest version is that in the years leading up to my original comment Michael was criticizing me and many in the rationality and EA communities intensely, and, despite our alleged desire to aspire to rationality, I and I think many others did not like having our political foundations criticized/eroded, nor did I and I think various others like having the story I told myself to keep stably “doing my work” criticized/eroded. This, despite the fact that attempting to share reasoning and disagreements is in fact a furthering of our alleged goals and our alleged culture. The specific voiced accusations about Michael were not “but he keeps criticizing us and hurting our feelings and/or our political support” — and nevertheless I’m sure this was part of what led to me making the comment I made above (though it was not my conscious reason), and I’m sure it led to some of the rest of the ostracism he experienced as well. This isn’t the whole of the story, but it ought to have been disclosed clearly in the same way that conflicts of interest ought to be disclosed clearly. And, separately but relatedly, it is my current view that it would be all things considered much better to have Michael around talking to people in these communities, though this will bring friction.
There’s broader context I don’t know how to discuss well, which I’ll at least discuss poorly:
Should the aspiring rationality community, or any community, attempt to protect its adult members from misleading reasoning, allegedly manipulative conversational tactics, etc., via cautioning them not to talk to some people? My view at the time of my original (Feb 2019) comment was “yes”. My current view is more or less “heck no!”; protecting people from allegedly manipulative tactics, or allegedly misleading arguments, is good — but it should be done via sharing additional info, not via discouraging people from encountering info/conversations. The reason is that more info tends to be broadly helpful (and this is a relatively fool-resistant heuristic even if implemented by people who are deluded in various ways), and trusting who can figure out who ought to restrict their info-intake how seems like a doomed endeavor (and does not degrade gracefully with deludedness/corruption in the leadership). (Watching the CDC on covid helped drive this home for me. Belatedly noticing how much something-like-doublethink I had in my original beliefs about Michael and related matters also helped drive this home for me.)
Should some organizations/people within the rationality and EA communities create simplified narratives that allow many people to pull in the same direction, to feel good about each others’ donations to the same organizations, etc.? My view at the time of my original (Feb 2019) comment was “yes”; my current view is “no — and especially not via implicit or explicit pressures to restrict information-flow.” Reasons for updates same as above.
It is nevertheless the case that Michael has had a tendency to e.g. yell rather more than I would like. For an aspiring rationality community’s general “who is worth ever talking to?” list, this ought to matter much less than the above. Insofar as a given person is trying to create contexts where people reliably don’t yell or something, they’ll want to do whatever they want to do; but insofar as we’re creating a community-wide include/exclude list (as in e.g. this comment on whether to let Michael speak at SSC meetups), it is my opinion that Michael ought to be on the “include” list.
Thoughts/comments welcome, and probably helpful for getting to shared accurate pictures about any of what’s above.
There’s a bunch of different options for interacting with a person/group/information source:
Read what they write
Go to talks by them and ask a question
Talk with them on comments on their blogs
Have 1-1 online conversations with them (calls/emails)
Invite them into your home and be friends with them
Naturally there’s a difference between “telling your friend that they should ignore the CDC” and “not letting a CDC leadership staff member into your home for dinner”. I’m much more sympathetic to the latter.
Related: As a somewhat extreme example I’ve thought about in the past in other situations with other people, I think that people who have committed crimes (e.g. theft) could be great and insightful contributors to open research problems, but might belong geographically in jail and be important to not allow into my home. Especially for insightful people with unique perspectives who were intellectually productive I’d want to put in a lot of work to ensure they can bring their great contributions in ways that aren’t open to abuse or likely to leave my friends substantially hurt on some key dimension.
–––
Thx for your comment. I don’t have a clear sense from your comment what you’re trying to suggest for Michael specifically — I’ve found it quite valuable to read his Twitter, but more than that. Actually, here’s what I suspect you’re saying. I think you’re saying that the following things seem worthwhile to you: have 1-1 convos with Michael, talk to Michael at events, reply to his emails and talk with him online. And then you’re not making an active recommendation about whether to: have Michael over for dinner, have Michael stay at your house, date Michael, live with Michael, lend Michael money, start a business with Michael, etc, and you’re aiming to trust people to figure that out for themselves.
It’s not a great guess, but it’s my best (quick) guess. Thoughts?