Paul saying those that didn’t know God and that didn’t have the law but that acted justly being justified because of their actions doesn’t imply to you that it is possible to be moral, healthy, and happy without faith in God?
I don’t know where you draw that implication from the word “justified”. So, no.
How about this, where in “There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated— And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.” does it mention anything about having faith in God being a prerequisite for receiving a blessing?
I guess I did have a very abstract belief that those who followed the commandments, the “law”, even if they didn’t believe, would still receive the same blessings as those who do. But, the part of The God Delusion that talked about atheists being just as happy, moral, and healthy as theists never said anything about following Mormon commandments to do so, and for that reason it was a revolutionary concept to me. What was a new concept was that you could have a lifestyle completely different from those lived by Latter-day Saints and still be moral, happy, and healthy. Though, come to think about it, I was introduced to this concept not just in The God Delusion, but also in my interactions with hundreds of Brazilian families. Certainly the mission experience added to the knowledge base I needed to refute Mormonism.
Where in “if ye have done it unto the least of these they brethren ye have done it unto me” does it say that one must believe in God for that to be valid?
“Till you have learnt to serve men, how can you serve spirits?”
″ Would God that all the LORD’S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!”
The reason we are having this discussion is because I feel you’ve characterized me unfairly as “the Ex-Mormon who never really knew his own religion and had no reason to believe in the fringe theories he did”. My goal is to support my case that I really was a mainstream Latter-day Saint before I lost my faith. So, you can use your apologetic arguments all you want for whatever idea you have about Mormonism, but if they aren’t based clearly in the scriptures (which I studied a great deal), and if they were never taught widely in the Church, then why exactly did I err in not coming to the same understanding as you? I do not think you have any good evidence for why I was an atypical Mormon who was unjustified in believing in the things I did.
How could anyone ignore these parts of the Gospel while studying “deep doctrine”?
Very easily, as Jesus repeatedly stated.
What Jesus stated on this is extremely illogical to me. Why is what he said logical to you?
every member of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles were prophets, seers, and revelators and that they spoke directly with Jesus Christ, therefore they were incapable of teaching false doctrine to the members of the Church.
I am not sure how the first part of this lead to the second part of this, but I will believe that was your belief.
So you think that it was unreasonable for me to assume that men who are given an office BY GOD with the title “prophet, seer and revelator” and who speak directly with Jesus Christ, face-to-face, would not teach false doctrine? Do you think that a person who speaks face-to-face with Jesus Christ would then teach his own false ideas to members of Christ’s One True Church?
The reason we are having this discussion is because I feel you’ve characterized me unfairly as “the Ex-Mormon who never really knew his own religion and had no reason to believe in the fringe theories he did”. My goal is to support my case that I really was a mainstream Latter-day Saint before I lost my faith.
So, this whole debate is about whether your-previous-self, or JohnH, is better deserving of the title of ‘true Mormon’?
On a different point:
How could anyone ignore these parts of the Gospel while studying “deep doctrine”?
Very easily, as Jesus repeatedly stated.
What Jesus stated on this is extremely illogical to me. Why is what he said logical to you?
I would like to draw a figurative circle around this statement...
So you think that it was unreasonable for me to assume that men who are given an office BY GOD with the title “prophet, seer and revelator” and who speak directly with Jesus Christ, face-to-face, would not teach false doctrine? Do you think that a person who speaks face-to-face with Jesus Christ would then teach his own false ideas to members of Christ’s One True Church?
...and compare it to this one. They appear to contradict each other. Can you explain?
So, this whole debate is about whether your-previous-self, or JohnH, is better deserving of the title of ‘true Mormon’?
That’s funny. No. I don’t care what JohnH wants to be seen as or what title he deserves. I just want my previous-self identified as a “plausible Mormon”. In my opinion, JohnH wants me to be seen as a “fringe Mormon” whose departure from the LDS Church is unimportant in the debate over whether the LDS Church is true, because I didn’t really understand Latter-day Saint beliefs. Which I did as much as any other average Latter-day Saint I know.
They appear to contradict each other. Can you explain?
I don’t see the contradiction. These statements appear to be unrelated. Can you explain what contradiction you see?
That’s funny. No. I don’t care what JohnH wants to be seen as or what title he deserves. I just want my previous-self identified as a “plausible Mormon”. In my opinion, JohnH wants me to be seen as a “fringe Mormon” whose departure from the LDS Church is unimportant in the debate over whether the LDS Church is true, because I didn’t really understand Latter-day Saint beliefs. Which I did as much as any other average Latter-day Saint I know.
If you’re feeling trapped into arguing with this guy to defend your reputation, you may be better off just saying something like: “If you turn out to be right, and most people don’t believe the way I do, I’m still not going to start believing in the LDS. Therefore my expected return on this conversation is 0 and I’m not going to continue it.”
Certainly from my perspective that would be a much more high-status move than continuing to argue with the guy. Because, in all kindness: Your departure from the LDS is unimportant in the debate over whether the Church is true. Not because the beliefs are or are not commonly held, nor because they are or are not ridiculous, but because there are much better reasons for disbelieving. Whichever one of your views prevails here, it’s not going to serve as a good reason for me or anyone else to start believing or disbelieving.
Your reasons may be important in a discussion over why people leave the LDS—but that’s a separate issue to whether the LDS is true. So, you may not be getting what you think you’re getting in terms of reputation by arguing this over this.
I don’t see the contradiction. These statements appear to be unrelated. Can you explain what contradiction you see?
Well, let me start with the first example:
How could anyone ignore these parts of the Gospel while studying “deep doctrine”?
Very easily, as Jesus repeatedly stated.
What Jesus stated on this is extremely illogical to me. Why is what he said logical to you?
Paraphrasing somewhat, JohnH said ‘because Jesus said so’ and you responded that this reason was insufficient for a Mormon to hold a belief; that it needed to be logical as well.
While, in the second case...
So you think that it was unreasonable for me to assume that men who are given an office BY GOD with the title “prophet, seer and revelator” and who speak directly with Jesus Christ, face-to-face, would not teach false doctrine? Do you think that a person who speaks face-to-face with Jesus Christ would then teach his own false ideas to members of Christ’s One True Church?
...it seems that you are claiming that saying that ‘a man who has spoken with Jesus said so’ is sufficient reason for a Mormon to hold a belief.
I would expect the second reason to be weaker than the first, since in the second case there is someone else speaking in the middle (if you’ve ever played Broken Telephone, you’ll know why this is a bad thing). Yet you appear to be claiming that the second reason is stronger than the first. Hence my confusion.
Oh, okay, I understand how this could be seen as contradictory.
In the first case I was arguing from my own, real-time atheist self that believes Jesus was illogical in his comments on people forgetting the basic principles of Christianity in their pursuit for more knowledge. How could someone forget such simple principles like “love one another” in their pursuit for more knowledge? Note that I never said this reason was insufficient for a Mormon to hold this belief, I was only saying it was insufficient to atheist me and I wanted JohnH to provide a better defense of his point, which he didn’t.
In the second case I used past-tense ”… you think that it WAS unreasonable for me...”, and we were already talking about my former beliefs. So, I was arguing from my former Mormon self that did believe that Jesus saying something was enough to validate a belief.
The discussion became rather confusing because JohnH wanted to discredit my past beliefs rather than my current beliefs.
Ah, I see. You were trying to defend two contradictory positions, and I did not notice when you switched between them. (This is one reason why I find it’s often a bad idea to try to defend an idea that you have abandoned, by the way; it leads to confusion.)
How could someone forget such simple principles like “love one another” in their pursuit for more knowledge?
That is actually quite possible. Step one is a person who seeks more knowledge, and finds it. That’s fine, so far. Step two is the person realises that they are a lot more knowledgeable than anyone else; that’s fine as well, but it can be like standing on the edge of a cliff. Step three is that the person becomes arrogant. They see most other people as a distraction, as sort of sub-human. This is where things start to go wrong. Step four is when the person decides that he knows what the best thing for everyone else to do is better than they do. And if they won’t do it, then he’ll make them do it.
Before long, you could very well have a person who, while he admits that it’s important to love your fellow-man in theory, in practice thinks that the best thing to do is to start the Spanish Inquisition. The fact that the Spanish Inquisition ever existed, started by people who professed “love one another” as a core tenet of their faith, shows that this can happen...
Those are good examples. Though I guess whether this is possible depends on your definition of “forget”. Speaking of the Spanish Inquisition, I am of the opinion that the Inquisitors did not forget their core tenets but that further knowledge (however flawed) gave them new means to interpret the original tenets. You could suggest that this re-interpretation was exactly what Jesus wanted to keep people from doing, of course. The question I ask Christians, then, is “What knowledge is acceptable and how should it be attained when God doesn’t encourage the utilization of all knowledge?” This would certainly be an important question for theists to answer, and may be relatively simple. I can already guess a few possible answers.
Though I guess whether this is possible depends on your definition of “forget”.
I’m assuming “to act as though ignorant of the principle in question”.
The question I ask Christians, then, is “What knowledge is acceptable and how should it be attained when God doesn’t encourage the utilization of all knowledge?”
I don’t think its the knowledge that’s dangerous, in itself. I think it’s the arrogance. Or the sophisticated argument that starts with principles X and Y and leads to actions that directly contradict principle X.
For example; consider the following principles:
Love thy neighbour as thyself
Anyone who does not profess will be tortured terribly in Hell after death, beyond anything mortals can do
That’s enough to lead to the Inquisition, by this route:
Looking at Principle 2, I do not wish myself, or those that I love to enter Hell. Considering Principle 1, I must try to save everyone from that fate, by any means possible. I must therefore attempt to convert everyone to .
(Consideration of various means snipped for brevity)
Yet there may be some people who refuse to convert, even in the face of all these arguments. In such a case, would torture be acceptable? If a person who is not tortured does not repent, then he is doomed to what is worse than a mere few months, even a mere few years of torture; he is doomed to an eternity of torture. If a person is tortured into repentance, then he is saved an eternity of torture—a net gain for the victim. If he is tortured and does not repent, then he experiences an eternity of torture in any case—in that case, he is at least no worse off. So a tortured victim is at worst no worse off, and at best a good deal better off, than a man who does not repent. However, care must be taken to ensure that the victim does not die during torture, but before repenting.
Better yet, the mere rumour of torture may lead some to repent more swiftly. Thus, judicious use of torture becomes a moral imperative.
(As an exercise, incidentally, can you spot the flaw in that chain of reasoning?)
And then you have the Inquisitors, and fear and terror and sharp knives in dark rooms...
Step four is when the person decides that he knows what the best thing for everyone else to do is better than they do. And if they won’t do it, then he’ll make them do it.
It’s worth noting that if the person successfully “found knowledge”, they are in fact correct (unless it was irrelevant knowledge, I guess.)
Historical evidence suggests that people get to step 4 before correctly finding knowledge quite often. The Spanish Inquisition is a shining example. Or communism—in its original inception, it was supposed to be a utopian paradise where everyone does what work is necessary, and enjoys fair benefits therefrom.
I suspect that a common failure mode is that one fails to take into account that many people are doing that which they are doing because they are quite happy to do it. They’ve smoothed out any sharp corners in their lifestyle that they could manage to smooth out, and see little benefit in changing to a new lifestyle, with new and unexpected sharp corners that will need smoothing.
I would therefore recommend being very, very cautious about assuming that one has successfully found sufficient knowledge.
I agree there’s a common failure mode here—I’d be inclined to say it’s simple overconfidence, and maybe overestimating your rationality relative to everyone else.
Even then, I’d most likely object to their attempts to try to dictate the actions of others; because of the common failure mode, my heuristic is to assign a very strong prior to the hypothesis that they are unsuccessful. Also, trying force has some fairly substantial negative effects; any positive effects of their proposed behaviour change would have to be significant to overcome that.
However, if they are willing to try to change the actions of others through simple persuasion without resorting to force, then I would not object. And if their proposed course of action is significantly better, then I would expect persuasion to work in at least some cases; and then these cases can be used as evidence for the proposed course of action working.
To be fair, we may have different interventions in mind here. I would also expect someone who genuinely found knowledge to use “soft force”, but maybe that’s just wishful thinking.
However, if forcing people to do things really helps, I’m all for intervention. Addicts, for example.
It’s worth noting that if the person successfully “found knowledge”, they are in fact correct (unless it was irrelevant knowledge, I guess.)
This can never be put into practice. A person can try to find knowledge, but there is nothing they can do to determine whether they have successfully found knowledge—any such attempts collapse into part of trying to find knowledge. There is no way of getting to a meta-level from which you can judge whether your efforts bore fruit. The ladder has no rungs.
No, just that while you can try harder to find knowledge, there isn’t a separate metalevel at which seeing if you really have knowledge is a different activity.
If you can receive information that provides strong Bayesian evidence that you’re belief is true, how is there “nothing they can do to determine whether they have successfully found knowledge”?
I don’t know that much about Mormonism, but isn’t it possible that there are multiple different sects of it, just like there are multiple sects of conventional Christianity, Judaism, Wicca, etc. ? In this case, each member of a sect would see himself as the One True Mormon (tm), and would be technically correct, despite believing in different things than members of other sects.
Mormonism is much more structured then that. There are different sects but those sects are different churches, both of us come from the LDS church, which is the largest and the one that everyone thinks of when they say Mormon (unless they are thinking of the polygamous FLDS).
There are those that call themselves New Order Mormons which are within the LDS church, by which they mean they don’t believe in any of the truth claims of the church but like the culture (or something like that, I am sure I am taking what they say out of its “rich contextual setting”).
Thanks, that was informative ! So, I assume that the LDS is managed by the Prophet, similarly to how the Catholic Church is managed by the Pope ? I don’t mean to imply that the beliefs and the divine status (or lack thereof) of the two are equivalent, I’m merely comparing their places on the org chart.
Although, now that I think about it, even the Catholics have their sub-sects. For example, while the Pope is officially against contraception, many (if not most) American Catholics choose to ignore that part of the doctrine, and IIRC there are even some nuns actively campaigning to make it more accessible.
So, I assume that the LDS is managed by the Prophet, similarly to how the Catholic Church is managed by the Pope ?
If memory serves, the President of the (LDS) Church, his advisors, and the members of the church’s senior leadership council (called the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles) all hold the title of prophet—specifically “prophet, seer, and revelator”. That doesn’t necessarily carry all the implications that “prophet” might outside of an Mormon context, though. One of the quirks of Mormonism is a certain degree of rank inflation compared to most Abrahamic religions; almost all male Mormons enter what the religion calls an order of priesthood) at the age of twelve, for example, and a second when they reach eighteen.
But yes, for most purposes the President of the Church is loosely equivalent to the Catholic Pope. Things get a little funky as you get into lower ranks: the LDS org chart is much more complicated than the Catholic, with several layers of leadership councils and more titles than I can easily keep straight. Though it hasn’t developed the numerous unofficial and semi-official leadership roles that Catholicism has, being a smaller and younger religion.
I am mostly just answering direct questions, I am horrible at walking away when questions are asked. Since this conversation is far outside of the norms of the group, I will do so in a private message if atomliner wants to continue the conversation. If he would rather it be public I would be willing to set up a blog for the purpose of continuing this conversation.
The reason we are having this discussion is because I feel you’ve characterized me unfairly as “the Ex-Mormon who never really knew his own religion and had no reason to believe in the fringe theories he did”. My goal is to support my case that I really was a mainstream Latter-day Saint before I lost my faith. So, you can use your apologetic arguments all you want for whatever idea you have about Mormonism, but if they aren’t based clearly in the scriptures (which I studied a great deal), and if they were never taught widely in the Church, then why exactly did I err in not coming to the same understanding as you? I do not think you have any good evidence for why I was an atypical Mormon who was unjustified in believing in the things I did.
This here is an excellent point. I’m pretty sure all religions have “unofficial” doctrines; certainly it would fit my experience. Such doctrines have no bearing on the truth of the “official” doctrines, technically, but they are identified with the religion by believers and unbelievers alike.
That said, while I’m hardly an authority on Mormonism, I would guess your beliefs were more, well, strange than average—simply because your deconversion selects for unconvincing and dissonant beliefs.
So, you can use your apologetic arguments all you want for whatever idea you have about Mormonism, but if they aren’t based clearly in the scriptures
Please show what I said (excluding the reference to Confucius) is not clearly based in scripture, Numbers 11:29 may be helpful.
would not teach false doctrine?
Yes. that is unreasonable to assume
Do you think that a person who speaks face-to-face with Jesus Christ would then teach his own false ideas to members of Christ’s One True Church?
Absolutely, if Jesus says something to a prophet then what Jesus said was correct. What the prophet thinks and communicates in addition to that particular thing has no guarantee of being correct and is very likely to be at least partially incorrect. The prophet will place the words of Jesus in the framework of other beliefs and cultural constructs in the world in which they live. Prophets just as much as anyone else do not receive the fullness at once, meaning that of necessity some of their beliefs (and therefore some of their teachings) will not be correct, excluding Jesus. Prophets are not perfect any more then anyone else is perfect and we are supposed to use the light of the Spirit to discern the truth ourselves rather then follow the prophet without thought or seeking to know for ourselves. In other words, telling people to seek God as to every question is calling them to be prophets.
Why is what he said logical to you?
Because I have not stood in the Divine Council and so I know that not only do I not know the secrets of God I also do not have a complete understanding of faith, repentance, baptism, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost, of loving God or of loving my neighbor as myself, nor will I until, either in this life or the next, I hear the Father say Ye shall have eternal life and receive an end to my faith.
Please show what I said (excluding the reference to Confucius) is not clearly based in scripture, Numbers 11:29 may be helpful.
I apologize. I had thought that you were using the three scriptures I quoted earlier to support the point that the scriptures confirms that atheists can be as happy, healthy, and moral as theists. In actuality, you were using them to describe how blessings come from following the commandments and not just from belief in the first two cases and in the third case you were supporting the idea that God understands it is difficult for people to distinguish truth from error.
The point I made about our conversation still stands, however. Your goal seems to be “Make atomliner look like he didn’t believe in things Mormons should” while my goal is “show I was a normal Latter-day Saint before losing my faith”.
What the prophet thinks and communicates in addition to that particular thing has no guarantee of being correct and is very likely to be at least partially incorrect. The prophet will place the words of Jesus in the framework of other beliefs and cultural constructs in the world in which they live. Prophets just as much as anyone else do not receive the fullness at once, meaning that of necessity some of their beliefs (and therefore some of their teachings) will not be correct, excluding Jesus.
I have two problems with this. The first is that I do not see any scriptures supporting this view clearly. How was I supposed to know this? No one teaches in church that prophets can teach false doctrine. In my experience with hundreds of active Latter-day Saints, THIS belief is atypical. In fact I just got called out by a bunch of mission buddies for saying this on Facebook, that the prophets can sometimes lead us astray (we were talking about gay marriage), and I got called an apostate outright.
My second problem is that I said false doctrine, not small inaccuracies attributed to translation error. You think that a prophet could speak to Jesus Christ face-to-face and then write up entire discourses on stuff like Adam-God theory, blood atonement, doctrinal racism and affirm boldly that this is the truth to the Saints? God must have a very strange way of picking his prophets, it seems like he would want to call people who wouldn’t invent their own ideas and who would simply repeat to the Saints what was said to them by Christ. I mean, does God want the truth expressed accurately or not? Were the prophets really the best people available for this task?? They have a terrible track record.
Why is what he said logical to you?
Because I have not stood in the Divine Council and so I know that not only do I not know the secrets of God I also do not have a complete understanding of faith, repentance, baptism, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost, of loving God or of loving my neighbor as myself, nor will I until, either in this life or the next, I hear the Father say Ye shall have eternal life and receive an end to my faith.
Great. That still makes no logical sense to ME since I don’t believe in any of that. So, failure on your part to defend this point from an objective argument.
Why is that relevant? Older than you.
You are saying in your experience Mormonism is obviously a certain way and I’m saying in my experience Mormonism was not that way… I was wondering how much of a difference there is in our amount of experience. Did you hold all of these liberal Mormon beliefs when you were 21?
I don’t know where you draw that implication from the word “justified”. So, no.
I guess I did have a very abstract belief that those who followed the commandments, the “law”, even if they didn’t believe, would still receive the same blessings as those who do. But, the part of The God Delusion that talked about atheists being just as happy, moral, and healthy as theists never said anything about following Mormon commandments to do so, and for that reason it was a revolutionary concept to me. What was a new concept was that you could have a lifestyle completely different from those lived by Latter-day Saints and still be moral, happy, and healthy. Though, come to think about it, I was introduced to this concept not just in The God Delusion, but also in my interactions with hundreds of Brazilian families. Certainly the mission experience added to the knowledge base I needed to refute Mormonism.
The reason we are having this discussion is because I feel you’ve characterized me unfairly as “the Ex-Mormon who never really knew his own religion and had no reason to believe in the fringe theories he did”. My goal is to support my case that I really was a mainstream Latter-day Saint before I lost my faith. So, you can use your apologetic arguments all you want for whatever idea you have about Mormonism, but if they aren’t based clearly in the scriptures (which I studied a great deal), and if they were never taught widely in the Church, then why exactly did I err in not coming to the same understanding as you? I do not think you have any good evidence for why I was an atypical Mormon who was unjustified in believing in the things I did.
What Jesus stated on this is extremely illogical to me. Why is what he said logical to you?
So you think that it was unreasonable for me to assume that men who are given an office BY GOD with the title “prophet, seer and revelator” and who speak directly with Jesus Christ, face-to-face, would not teach false doctrine? Do you think that a person who speaks face-to-face with Jesus Christ would then teach his own false ideas to members of Christ’s One True Church?
And you are how old?
So, this whole debate is about whether your-previous-self, or JohnH, is better deserving of the title of ‘true Mormon’?
On a different point:
I would like to draw a figurative circle around this statement...
...and compare it to this one. They appear to contradict each other. Can you explain?
That’s funny. No. I don’t care what JohnH wants to be seen as or what title he deserves. I just want my previous-self identified as a “plausible Mormon”. In my opinion, JohnH wants me to be seen as a “fringe Mormon” whose departure from the LDS Church is unimportant in the debate over whether the LDS Church is true, because I didn’t really understand Latter-day Saint beliefs. Which I did as much as any other average Latter-day Saint I know.
I don’t see the contradiction. These statements appear to be unrelated. Can you explain what contradiction you see?
If you’re feeling trapped into arguing with this guy to defend your reputation, you may be better off just saying something like: “If you turn out to be right, and most people don’t believe the way I do, I’m still not going to start believing in the LDS. Therefore my expected return on this conversation is 0 and I’m not going to continue it.”
Certainly from my perspective that would be a much more high-status move than continuing to argue with the guy. Because, in all kindness: Your departure from the LDS is unimportant in the debate over whether the Church is true. Not because the beliefs are or are not commonly held, nor because they are or are not ridiculous, but because there are much better reasons for disbelieving. Whichever one of your views prevails here, it’s not going to serve as a good reason for me or anyone else to start believing or disbelieving.
Your reasons may be important in a discussion over why people leave the LDS—but that’s a separate issue to whether the LDS is true. So, you may not be getting what you think you’re getting in terms of reputation by arguing this over this.
Those are strong arguments for discontinuing this discussion. Thank you for helping me grok this situation better. :)
Well, let me start with the first example:
Paraphrasing somewhat, JohnH said ‘because Jesus said so’ and you responded that this reason was insufficient for a Mormon to hold a belief; that it needed to be logical as well.
While, in the second case...
...it seems that you are claiming that saying that ‘a man who has spoken with Jesus said so’ is sufficient reason for a Mormon to hold a belief.
I would expect the second reason to be weaker than the first, since in the second case there is someone else speaking in the middle (if you’ve ever played Broken Telephone, you’ll know why this is a bad thing). Yet you appear to be claiming that the second reason is stronger than the first. Hence my confusion.
Oh, okay, I understand how this could be seen as contradictory.
In the first case I was arguing from my own, real-time atheist self that believes Jesus was illogical in his comments on people forgetting the basic principles of Christianity in their pursuit for more knowledge. How could someone forget such simple principles like “love one another” in their pursuit for more knowledge? Note that I never said this reason was insufficient for a Mormon to hold this belief, I was only saying it was insufficient to atheist me and I wanted JohnH to provide a better defense of his point, which he didn’t.
In the second case I used past-tense ”… you think that it WAS unreasonable for me...”, and we were already talking about my former beliefs. So, I was arguing from my former Mormon self that did believe that Jesus saying something was enough to validate a belief.
The discussion became rather confusing because JohnH wanted to discredit my past beliefs rather than my current beliefs.
Ah, I see. You were trying to defend two contradictory positions, and I did not notice when you switched between them. (This is one reason why I find it’s often a bad idea to try to defend an idea that you have abandoned, by the way; it leads to confusion.)
That is actually quite possible. Step one is a person who seeks more knowledge, and finds it. That’s fine, so far. Step two is the person realises that they are a lot more knowledgeable than anyone else; that’s fine as well, but it can be like standing on the edge of a cliff. Step three is that the person becomes arrogant. They see most other people as a distraction, as sort of sub-human. This is where things start to go wrong. Step four is when the person decides that he knows what the best thing for everyone else to do is better than they do. And if they won’t do it, then he’ll make them do it.
Before long, you could very well have a person who, while he admits that it’s important to love your fellow-man in theory, in practice thinks that the best thing to do is to start the Spanish Inquisition. The fact that the Spanish Inquisition ever existed, started by people who professed “love one another” as a core tenet of their faith, shows that this can happen...
Those are good examples. Though I guess whether this is possible depends on your definition of “forget”. Speaking of the Spanish Inquisition, I am of the opinion that the Inquisitors did not forget their core tenets but that further knowledge (however flawed) gave them new means to interpret the original tenets. You could suggest that this re-interpretation was exactly what Jesus wanted to keep people from doing, of course. The question I ask Christians, then, is “What knowledge is acceptable and how should it be attained when God doesn’t encourage the utilization of all knowledge?” This would certainly be an important question for theists to answer, and may be relatively simple. I can already guess a few possible answers.
I’m assuming “to act as though ignorant of the principle in question”.
I don’t think its the knowledge that’s dangerous, in itself. I think it’s the arrogance. Or the sophisticated argument that starts with principles X and Y and leads to actions that directly contradict principle X.
For example; consider the following principles:
Love thy neighbour as thyself
Anyone who does not profess will be tortured terribly in Hell after death, beyond anything mortals can do
That’s enough to lead to the Inquisition, by this route:
Looking at Principle 2, I do not wish myself, or those that I love to enter Hell. Considering Principle 1, I must try to save everyone from that fate, by any means possible. I must therefore attempt to convert everyone to .
(Consideration of various means snipped for brevity)
Yet there may be some people who refuse to convert, even in the face of all these arguments. In such a case, would torture be acceptable? If a person who is not tortured does not repent, then he is doomed to what is worse than a mere few months, even a mere few years of torture; he is doomed to an eternity of torture. If a person is tortured into repentance, then he is saved an eternity of torture—a net gain for the victim. If he is tortured and does not repent, then he experiences an eternity of torture in any case—in that case, he is at least no worse off. So a tortured victim is at worst no worse off, and at best a good deal better off, than a man who does not repent. However, care must be taken to ensure that the victim does not die during torture, but before repenting.
Better yet, the mere rumour of torture may lead some to repent more swiftly. Thus, judicious use of torture becomes a moral imperative.
(As an exercise, incidentally, can you spot the flaw in that chain of reasoning?)
And then you have the Inquisitors, and fear and terror and sharp knives in dark rooms...
It’s worth noting that if the person successfully “found knowledge”, they are in fact correct (unless it was irrelevant knowledge, I guess.)
Historical evidence suggests that people get to step 4 before correctly finding knowledge quite often. The Spanish Inquisition is a shining example. Or communism—in its original inception, it was supposed to be a utopian paradise where everyone does what work is necessary, and enjoys fair benefits therefrom.
I suspect that a common failure mode is that one fails to take into account that many people are doing that which they are doing because they are quite happy to do it. They’ve smoothed out any sharp corners in their lifestyle that they could manage to smooth out, and see little benefit in changing to a new lifestyle, with new and unexpected sharp corners that will need smoothing.
I would therefore recommend being very, very cautious about assuming that one has successfully found sufficient knowledge.
I agree there’s a common failure mode here—I’d be inclined to say it’s simple overconfidence, and maybe overestimating your rationality relative to everyone else.
Still, if they’re successful...
Even then, I’d most likely object to their attempts to try to dictate the actions of others; because of the common failure mode, my heuristic is to assign a very strong prior to the hypothesis that they are unsuccessful. Also, trying force has some fairly substantial negative effects; any positive effects of their proposed behaviour change would have to be significant to overcome that.
However, if they are willing to try to change the actions of others through simple persuasion without resorting to force, then I would not object. And if their proposed course of action is significantly better, then I would expect persuasion to work in at least some cases; and then these cases can be used as evidence for the proposed course of action working.
To be fair, we may have different interventions in mind here. I would also expect someone who genuinely found knowledge to use “soft force”, but maybe that’s just wishful thinking.
However, if forcing people to do things really helps, I’m all for intervention. Addicts, for example.
I was thinking armies, secret police, so on and so forth, forcing an entire country to one’s will.
Hmmm. I hadn’t thought of addicts. You make a good point.
I think I might need to re-evaluate my heuristics on this point.
This can never be put into practice. A person can try to find knowledge, but there is nothing they can do to determine whether they have successfully found knowledge—any such attempts collapse into part of trying to find knowledge. There is no way of getting to a meta-level from which you can judge whether your efforts bore fruit. The ladder has no rungs.
raises eyebrows
You’re saying it’s impossible for any evidence to change your estimate of whether something will help people?
No, just that while you can try harder to find knowledge, there isn’t a separate metalevel at which seeing if you really have knowledge is a different activity.
If you can receive information that provides strong Bayesian evidence that you’re belief is true, how is there “nothing they can do to determine whether they have successfully found knowledge”?
I don’t know that much about Mormonism, but isn’t it possible that there are multiple different sects of it, just like there are multiple sects of conventional Christianity, Judaism, Wicca, etc. ? In this case, each member of a sect would see himself as the One True Mormon (tm), and would be technically correct, despite believing in different things than members of other sects.
Mormonism is much more structured then that. There are different sects but those sects are different churches, both of us come from the LDS church, which is the largest and the one that everyone thinks of when they say Mormon (unless they are thinking of the polygamous FLDS).
There are those that call themselves New Order Mormons which are within the LDS church, by which they mean they don’t believe in any of the truth claims of the church but like the culture (or something like that, I am sure I am taking what they say out of its “rich contextual setting”).
Thanks, that was informative ! So, I assume that the LDS is managed by the Prophet, similarly to how the Catholic Church is managed by the Pope ? I don’t mean to imply that the beliefs and the divine status (or lack thereof) of the two are equivalent, I’m merely comparing their places on the org chart.
Although, now that I think about it, even the Catholics have their sub-sects. For example, while the Pope is officially against contraception, many (if not most) American Catholics choose to ignore that part of the doctrine, and IIRC there are even some nuns actively campaigning to make it more accessible.
If memory serves, the President of the (LDS) Church, his advisors, and the members of the church’s senior leadership council (called the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles) all hold the title of prophet—specifically “prophet, seer, and revelator”. That doesn’t necessarily carry all the implications that “prophet” might outside of an Mormon context, though. One of the quirks of Mormonism is a certain degree of rank inflation compared to most Abrahamic religions; almost all male Mormons enter what the religion calls an order of priesthood) at the age of twelve, for example, and a second when they reach eighteen.
But yes, for most purposes the President of the Church is loosely equivalent to the Catholic Pope. Things get a little funky as you get into lower ranks: the LDS org chart is much more complicated than the Catholic, with several layers of leadership councils and more titles than I can easily keep straight. Though it hasn’t developed the numerous unofficial and semi-official leadership roles that Catholicism has, being a smaller and younger religion.
I am mostly just answering direct questions, I am horrible at walking away when questions are asked. Since this conversation is far outside of the norms of the group, I will do so in a private message if atomliner wants to continue the conversation. If he would rather it be public I would be willing to set up a blog for the purpose of continuing this conversation.
This here is an excellent point. I’m pretty sure all religions have “unofficial” doctrines; certainly it would fit my experience. Such doctrines have no bearing on the truth of the “official” doctrines, technically, but they are identified with the religion by believers and unbelievers alike.
That said, while I’m hardly an authority on Mormonism, I would guess your beliefs were more, well, strange than average—simply because your deconversion selects for unconvincing and dissonant beliefs.
Please show what I said (excluding the reference to Confucius) is not clearly based in scripture, Numbers 11:29 may be helpful.
Yes. that is unreasonable to assume
Absolutely, if Jesus says something to a prophet then what Jesus said was correct. What the prophet thinks and communicates in addition to that particular thing has no guarantee of being correct and is very likely to be at least partially incorrect. The prophet will place the words of Jesus in the framework of other beliefs and cultural constructs in the world in which they live. Prophets just as much as anyone else do not receive the fullness at once, meaning that of necessity some of their beliefs (and therefore some of their teachings) will not be correct, excluding Jesus. Prophets are not perfect any more then anyone else is perfect and we are supposed to use the light of the Spirit to discern the truth ourselves rather then follow the prophet without thought or seeking to know for ourselves. In other words, telling people to seek God as to every question is calling them to be prophets.
Because I have not stood in the Divine Council and so I know that not only do I not know the secrets of God I also do not have a complete understanding of faith, repentance, baptism, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost, of loving God or of loving my neighbor as myself, nor will I until, either in this life or the next, I hear the Father say Ye shall have eternal life and receive an end to my faith.
Why is that relevant? Older than you.
I apologize. I had thought that you were using the three scriptures I quoted earlier to support the point that the scriptures confirms that atheists can be as happy, healthy, and moral as theists. In actuality, you were using them to describe how blessings come from following the commandments and not just from belief in the first two cases and in the third case you were supporting the idea that God understands it is difficult for people to distinguish truth from error.
The point I made about our conversation still stands, however. Your goal seems to be “Make atomliner look like he didn’t believe in things Mormons should” while my goal is “show I was a normal Latter-day Saint before losing my faith”.
I have two problems with this. The first is that I do not see any scriptures supporting this view clearly. How was I supposed to know this? No one teaches in church that prophets can teach false doctrine. In my experience with hundreds of active Latter-day Saints, THIS belief is atypical. In fact I just got called out by a bunch of mission buddies for saying this on Facebook, that the prophets can sometimes lead us astray (we were talking about gay marriage), and I got called an apostate outright.
My second problem is that I said false doctrine, not small inaccuracies attributed to translation error. You think that a prophet could speak to Jesus Christ face-to-face and then write up entire discourses on stuff like Adam-God theory, blood atonement, doctrinal racism and affirm boldly that this is the truth to the Saints? God must have a very strange way of picking his prophets, it seems like he would want to call people who wouldn’t invent their own ideas and who would simply repeat to the Saints what was said to them by Christ. I mean, does God want the truth expressed accurately or not? Were the prophets really the best people available for this task?? They have a terrible track record.
Great. That still makes no logical sense to ME since I don’t believe in any of that. So, failure on your part to defend this point from an objective argument.
You are saying in your experience Mormonism is obviously a certain way and I’m saying in my experience Mormonism was not that way… I was wondering how much of a difference there is in our amount of experience. Did you hold all of these liberal Mormon beliefs when you were 21?