I can’t see much evidence that the people who construe atheism and agnosticicsm in the way you describe ae actually correct. I agree that the no-reality position and the unknowable-reality position could both be considered
anti-realist, but they are still substantively difference. Deriving no-reality from unknowable reality always seems like an error to me, but maybe someone has an impressive defense of it.
Well, I certainly don’t want to get into a dispute about what terms like “atheism”, “agnosticism”, “anti-realism”, etc. ought to mean. All I’ll say about that is if the words aren’t being used and interpreted in consistent ways, then using them does not facilitate communication. If the goal is communication, then it’s best not to use those words.
Leaving language aside, I accept that the difference between “there is no reality” and “whether there is a reality is systematically unknowable” is an important difference to you, and I agree that deriving the former from the latter is tricky.
I’m pretty sure it’s not an important difference to shminux. It certainly isn’t an important difference to me… I can’t imagine why I would ever care about which of those two statements is true if at least one of them is.
Well, I certainly don’t want to get into a dispute about what terms like “atheism”, “agnosticism”, “anti-realism”, etc. ought to mean.
I don’t see why not.
All I’ll say about that is if the words aren’t being used and interpreted in consistent ways, then using them does not facilitate communication. If the goal is communication, then it’s best not to use those words.
Or settle their correct meanings using a dictionary, or something.
Leaving language aside, I accept that the difference between “there is no reality” and “whether there is a reality is systematically unknowable” is an important difference to you, and I agree that deriving the former from the latter is tricky.
I’m pretty sure it’s not an important difference to shminux.
If shminux is using arguments for Unknowable Reality as arguments for No Reality, then shminux’s arguments are invalid whatever shminux cares about.
It certainly isn’t an important difference to me… I can’t imagine why I would ever care about which of those two statements is true if at least one of them is.
One seems a lot ore far fetched that then other to me.
Well, I certainly don’t want to get into a dispute about what terms like “atheism”, “agnosticism”, “anti-realism”, etc. ought to mean.
I don’t see why not.
If all goes well in a definitional dispute, at the end of it we have agreed on what meaning to assign to a word. I don’t really care; I’m usually perfectly happy to assign to it whatever meaning my interlocutor does. In most cases, there was some other more interesting question about the world I was trying to get at, which got derailed by a different discussion about the meanings of words. In most of the remaining cases, the discussion about the meanings of words was less valuable to me than silence would have been.
That’s not to say other people need to share my values, though; if you want to join definitional disputes (by referencing a dictionary or something) go right ahead. I’m just opting out.
If shminux is using arguments for Unknowable Reality as arguments for No Reality,
I don’t think he is, though I could be wrong about that.
I can’t see much evidence that the people who construe atheism and agnosticicsm in the way you describe ae actually correct. I agree that the no-reality position and the unknowable-reality position could both be considered anti-realist, but they are still substantively difference. Deriving no-reality from unknowable reality always seems like an error to me, but maybe someone has an impressive defense of it.
Well, I certainly don’t want to get into a dispute about what terms like “atheism”, “agnosticism”, “anti-realism”, etc. ought to mean. All I’ll say about that is if the words aren’t being used and interpreted in consistent ways, then using them does not facilitate communication. If the goal is communication, then it’s best not to use those words.
Leaving language aside, I accept that the difference between “there is no reality” and “whether there is a reality is systematically unknowable” is an important difference to you, and I agree that deriving the former from the latter is tricky.
I’m pretty sure it’s not an important difference to shminux. It certainly isn’t an important difference to me… I can’t imagine why I would ever care about which of those two statements is true if at least one of them is.
I don’t see why not.
Or settle their correct meanings using a dictionary, or something.
If shminux is using arguments for Unknowable Reality as arguments for No Reality, then shminux’s arguments are invalid whatever shminux cares about.
One seems a lot ore far fetched that then other to me.
If all goes well in a definitional dispute, at the end of it we have agreed on what meaning to assign to a word. I don’t really care; I’m usually perfectly happy to assign to it whatever meaning my interlocutor does. In most cases, there was some other more interesting question about the world I was trying to get at, which got derailed by a different discussion about the meanings of words. In most of the remaining cases, the discussion about the meanings of words was less valuable to me than silence would have been.
That’s not to say other people need to share my values, though; if you want to join definitional disputes (by referencing a dictionary or something) go right ahead. I’m just opting out.
I don’t think he is, though I could be wrong about that.