One example is mentioned; the proofs of electrons assumes the existences of (electircally charged) electromagnetic fields (Thomson’s experiment), the proof of electromagnetic fields -as- electrically charged comes from electron scattering and similar experiments.
(I’m fine with “electrons exist as a phenomenon, even if they’re not the phenomenon we expect them to be”, but that tends to put people in an even more skeptical frame of mind then before I started “explaining”. I’ve generally given up such explanations; it appears I’m hopelessly bad at it.)
Another strange loop is in the quantization of energy (which requires electrical fields to be quantized, the evidence for which comes quantization of energy to begin with). Strange loops are -fine-, taken as a whole—taken as a whole the evidence can be pretty good—but when you’re stepping a skeptical person through it step by step it, it’s hard to justify the next step when the previous step depends on it. The Big Bang Theory is another—the theory requires something to plug the gap in expected versus received background radiation, and the evidence for the plug (dark energy, for example) pretty much requires BBT to be true to be meaningful.
(Although it may be that a large part of the problem with the strange loops is that only the earliest experiments tend to be easily found in textbooks and on the Internet, and later less loop-prone experiments don’t get much attention.)
One example is mentioned; the proofs of electrons assumes the existences of (electircally charged) electromagnetic fields (Thomson’s experiment), the proof of electromagnetic fields -as- electrically charged comes from electron scattering and similar experiments.
The existence of electromagnetic fields is just the existence of light. You can build up the whole theory of electricity and magnetism without mentioning electrons. Charge is just a definition that tells us that some types of matter attract some other types of matter.
Once you have electromagnetic fields understood well, you can ask questions like “well, what is this piece of metal made up of, what is this piece of plastic made up of”, etc, and you can measure charges and masses of the various constituents. Its not actually self-referential in the way you propose.
You’re correct that you can build up the theory without electrons—exactly this happened. That history produced linearly stepwise theories isn’t the same as the evidence being linearly stepwise, however.
Light IS electromagnetic fields. the phrase “electrically charged electromagnetic fields” is a contradiction- the fields aren’t charged. Charges react to the field.
If the fields WERE charged in some way, the theory would be non-linear.
In this case there is no loop- you can develop the electromagnetic theory around light, and from there proceed to electrons if you like.
Light, in the theory you’re indirectly referencing, is a disturbance in the electromagnetic field, not the field itself.
The fields are charged, hence all the formulas involving them reflecting charge in one form or another (charge density is pretty common); the amplitude of the field is defined as the force exerted on positively charged matter in the field. (The reason for this definition is that most electromagnetic fields we interact with are negatively charged, or have negative charge density, on account of electrons being more easily manipulated than cations, protons, plasma, or antimatter.)
With some creative use of relativity you can render the charge irrelevant for the purposes of (a carefully chosen) calculation. This is not the same as the charge not existing, however.
You are using charge in some non-standard way. Charges are source or sinks of the field.
An electromagnetic field does not sink or source more field- if it did, Maxwell’s equations would be non-linear. There is no such thing as a ‘negatively charged electromagnetic field’- there are just electromagnetic fields. Now, the electromagnetic field can have a negative (or positive) amplitude but this is not the same as saying its negatively charged.
One example is mentioned; the proofs of electrons assumes the existences of (electircally charged) electromagnetic fields (Thomson’s experiment), the proof of electromagnetic fields -as- electrically charged comes from electron scattering and similar experiments.
(I’m fine with “electrons exist as a phenomenon, even if they’re not the phenomenon we expect them to be”, but that tends to put people in an even more skeptical frame of mind then before I started “explaining”. I’ve generally given up such explanations; it appears I’m hopelessly bad at it.)
Another strange loop is in the quantization of energy (which requires electrical fields to be quantized, the evidence for which comes quantization of energy to begin with). Strange loops are -fine-, taken as a whole—taken as a whole the evidence can be pretty good—but when you’re stepping a skeptical person through it step by step it, it’s hard to justify the next step when the previous step depends on it. The Big Bang Theory is another—the theory requires something to plug the gap in expected versus received background radiation, and the evidence for the plug (dark energy, for example) pretty much requires BBT to be true to be meaningful.
(Although it may be that a large part of the problem with the strange loops is that only the earliest experiments tend to be easily found in textbooks and on the Internet, and later less loop-prone experiments don’t get much attention.)
The existence of electromagnetic fields is just the existence of light. You can build up the whole theory of electricity and magnetism without mentioning electrons. Charge is just a definition that tells us that some types of matter attract some other types of matter.
Once you have electromagnetic fields understood well, you can ask questions like “well, what is this piece of metal made up of, what is this piece of plastic made up of”, etc, and you can measure charges and masses of the various constituents. Its not actually self-referential in the way you propose.
Light isn’t electrically charged.
You’re correct that you can build up the theory without electrons—exactly this happened. That history produced linearly stepwise theories isn’t the same as the evidence being linearly stepwise, however.
Light IS electromagnetic fields. the phrase “electrically charged electromagnetic fields” is a contradiction- the fields aren’t charged. Charges react to the field.
If the fields WERE charged in some way, the theory would be non-linear.
In this case there is no loop- you can develop the electromagnetic theory around light, and from there proceed to electrons if you like.
Light, in the theory you’re indirectly referencing, is a disturbance in the electromagnetic field, not the field itself.
The fields are charged, hence all the formulas involving them reflecting charge in one form or another (charge density is pretty common); the amplitude of the field is defined as the force exerted on positively charged matter in the field. (The reason for this definition is that most electromagnetic fields we interact with are negatively charged, or have negative charge density, on account of electrons being more easily manipulated than cations, protons, plasma, or antimatter.)
With some creative use of relativity you can render the charge irrelevant for the purposes of (a carefully chosen) calculation. This is not the same as the charge not existing, however.
You are using charge in some non-standard way. Charges are source or sinks of the field.
An electromagnetic field does not sink or source more field- if it did, Maxwell’s equations would be non-linear. There is no such thing as a ‘negatively charged electromagnetic field’- there are just electromagnetic fields. Now, the electromagnetic field can have a negative (or positive) amplitude but this is not the same as saying its negatively charged.