Maybe we should organize a discussion where everyone has to take positions other than their own? If this really helps clarity (and I think it does) it could end up producing insights much more difficult (if not actually impossible) to reach with normal discussion.
(Plus it would be good practice at the Ideological Turing Test, generalized empathy skills, avoiding the antpattern of demonizing the other side, and avoiding steelmanning arguments into forms that don’t threaten your own arguments (since they would be threatening the other side’s arguments, as it were.))
Maybe we should organize a discussion where everyone has to take positions other than their own?
It seems to me to be one of the basic exercises in rationality, also known as “Devil’s advocate”. However, Eliezer dislikes it for some reason, probably because he thinks that it’s too easy to do poorly and then dismiss with a metaphorical self-congratulatory pat on one’s own back. Not sure how much of this is taught or practiced at CFAR camps.
Yup. In my experience, though, Devil’s Advocates are usually pitted against people genuinely arguing their cause, not other devil’s advocates.
However, Eliezer dislikes it for some reason, probably because he thinks that it’s too easy to do poorly and then dismiss with a metaphorical self-congratulatory pat on one’s own back.
Yeah, I remember being surprised by that reading the equences. He seemed to be describing acting as your own devil’s advocate, though, IIRC.
Well, if any nonrealists want to argue the realist position in response to my articulation of the instrumentalist position, they are certainly welcome to do so, and I can try to continue defending it… though I’m not sure how good a job of it I’ll do.
I was actually thinking of random topics, perhaps ones that are better understood by LW regulars, at least at first. Still …
if any nonrealists want to argue the realist position in response to my articulation of the instrumentalist position, they are certainly welcome to do so
Wait, there are nonrealists other than shiminux here?
Maybe we should organize a discussion where everyone has to take positions other than their own? If this really helps clarity (and I think it does) it could end up producing insights much more difficult (if not actually impossible) to reach with normal discussion.
(Plus it would be good practice at the Ideological Turing Test, generalized empathy skills, avoiding the antpattern of demonizing the other side, and avoiding steelmanning arguments into forms that don’t threaten your own arguments (since they would be threatening the other side’s arguments, as it were.))
It seems to me to be one of the basic exercises in rationality, also known as “Devil’s advocate”. However, Eliezer dislikes it for some reason, probably because he thinks that it’s too easy to do poorly and then dismiss with a metaphorical self-congratulatory pat on one’s own back. Not sure how much of this is taught or practiced at CFAR camps.
Yup. In my experience, though, Devil’s Advocates are usually pitted against people genuinely arguing their cause, not other devil’s advocates.
Yeah, I remember being surprised by that reading the equences. He seemed to be describing acting as your own devil’s advocate, though, IIRC.
Well, if any nonrealists want to argue the realist position in response to my articulation of the instrumentalist position, they are certainly welcome to do so, and I can try to continue defending it… though I’m not sure how good a job of it I’ll do.
I was actually thinking of random topics, perhaps ones that are better understood by LW regulars, at least at first. Still …
Wait, there are nonrealists other than shiminux here?
Beats me.