I see; I did misunderstand, but I think I get your point now. You’re not claiming that if only Mr. Feynman had known about the limits of free will he could have avoided a burn; you’re saying that, like all good rationalists everywhere, I should only want to believe true things, and it is unlikely that “I have free will” is a true thing, because sometimes smart people think that and turn out to be wrong.
Well, OK, fair enough, but it turns out that I get a lot of utility out of believing that I have free will. I’m happy to set aside that belief if there’s some specific reason why the belief is likely to harm me or stop me from getting what I want. One of the things I want is to never believe a logically inconsistent set of facts, and one of the things I want is to never ignore the appropriately validated direct evidence of my senses. That’s still not enough, though, to get me to “don’t believe things that have a low Bayesian prior and little or no supporting evidence.” I don’t get any utility out of being a Bayesianist per se; worshipping Bayes is just a means to an end for me, and I can’t find the end when it comes to rejecting the hypothesis of free will.
Robin, I’ve liked your comments both on this thread and others that we’ve had, but I can’t afford to continue the discussion any time soon—I need to get back to my thesis, which is due in a couple of weeks. Feel free to get in the last word; I’ll read it and think about it, but I won’t respond.
My last word, as you have been so generous as to give it to me, is that I actually do think you have free will. I believe you are wrong about what it is made of, just as the pre-classical Greeks were wrong about the shape of the Earth, but I don’t disagree that you have it.
Good luck on your thesis—I won’t distract you any more.
I place a very low probability on my having genuine ‘free will’ but I act as if I do because if I don’t it doesn’t matter what I do. It also seems to me that people who accept nihilism have life outcomes that I do not desire to share and so the expected utility of acting as if I have free will is high even absent my previous argument. It’s a bit of a Pascal’s Wager.
Why do you define “free will” to refer to something that does not exist, when the thing which does exist—will unconstrained by circumstance or compulsion—is useful to refer to? For one, its absence is one indicator of an invalid contract.
I’m not exactly sure what you’re accusing me of. I think Freedom Evolves is about the best exposition of how I conceive of free will. I am also a libertarian. I find it personally useful to believe in free will irrespective of arguments about determinism and I think we should have political systems that assume free will. I still have some mental gymnastics to perform to reconcile a deterministic material universe with my own personal intuitive conception of free will but I don’t think that really matters.
I don’t really understand what you mean when you use the word ‘libertarian’ - it doesn’t seem particularly related to my understanding. I mean it in the political sense. Perhaps there is a philosophical sense that you are using?
Libertarian is the name for someone who believes free will exists and that free will is incompatible with determinism. Lol, it didn’t even occur to me you could be talking about politics.
Ok, I’ve done some googling and think I understand what you meant when you used the word. I’d never heard it in that context before. I guess philosophically I’m something like a compatibilist then, but I’m more of an ’it’s largely irrelevant’ist.
I see; I did misunderstand, but I think I get your point now. You’re not claiming that if only Mr. Feynman had known about the limits of free will he could have avoided a burn; you’re saying that, like all good rationalists everywhere, I should only want to believe true things, and it is unlikely that “I have free will” is a true thing, because sometimes smart people think that and turn out to be wrong.
Well, OK, fair enough, but it turns out that I get a lot of utility out of believing that I have free will. I’m happy to set aside that belief if there’s some specific reason why the belief is likely to harm me or stop me from getting what I want. One of the things I want is to never believe a logically inconsistent set of facts, and one of the things I want is to never ignore the appropriately validated direct evidence of my senses. That’s still not enough, though, to get me to “don’t believe things that have a low Bayesian prior and little or no supporting evidence.” I don’t get any utility out of being a Bayesianist per se; worshipping Bayes is just a means to an end for me, and I can’t find the end when it comes to rejecting the hypothesis of free will.
Robin, I’ve liked your comments both on this thread and others that we’ve had, but I can’t afford to continue the discussion any time soon—I need to get back to my thesis, which is due in a couple of weeks. Feel free to get in the last word; I’ll read it and think about it, but I won’t respond.
Understood.
My last word, as you have been so generous as to give it to me, is that I actually do think you have free will. I believe you are wrong about what it is made of, just as the pre-classical Greeks were wrong about the shape of the Earth, but I don’t disagree that you have it.
Good luck on your thesis—I won’t distract you any more.
I place a very low probability on my having genuine ‘free will’ but I act as if I do because if I don’t it doesn’t matter what I do. It also seems to me that people who accept nihilism have life outcomes that I do not desire to share and so the expected utility of acting as if I have free will is high even absent my previous argument. It’s a bit of a Pascal’s Wager.
Why do you define “free will” to refer to something that does not exist, when the thing which does exist—will unconstrained by circumstance or compulsion—is useful to refer to? For one, its absence is one indicator of an invalid contract.
I’m not exactly sure what you’re accusing me of. I think Freedom Evolves is about the best exposition of how I conceive of free will. I am also a libertarian. I find it personally useful to believe in free will irrespective of arguments about determinism and I think we should have political systems that assume free will. I still have some mental gymnastics to perform to reconcile a deterministic material universe with my own personal intuitive conception of free will but I don’t think that really matters.
I’m confused. I haven’t read Freedom Evolves but Dennet is a compatiblist, afaik.
I think you’re saying you’re a compatibilist but act as if libertarianism were true, but I’m not sure.
I don’t really understand what you mean when you use the word ‘libertarian’ - it doesn’t seem particularly related to my understanding. I mean it in the political sense. Perhaps there is a philosophical sense that you are using?
Libertarian is the name for someone who believes free will exists and that free will is incompatible with determinism. Lol, it didn’t even occur to me you could be talking about politics.
I swear, if there ever exists a Less Wrong drinking game, “naming collision” would be at least “finish the glass”.
Ok, I’ve done some googling and think I understand what you meant when you used the word. I’d never heard it in that context before. I guess philosophically I’m something like a compatibilist then, but I’m more of an ’it’s largely irrelevant’ist.
I see. The word “genuine” is important, then—a nod to the “wretched subterfuge” attitude toward compatibilist free will. I withdraw my implications.
(I read Elbow Room, myself.)