I can offer an explanation that might fit. Rationalists tend toward expertise mode thinking (expert from the torbert action logic framework). Behaviour like reading the book is in line with the expert behaviour.
Cfar techniques and related in-person methods are not always about being the expert, they are about doing the best thing. Being a better expert is not always the same as being the better munchkin, the better person or the person who can step out of their knowledge beliefs.
In theory, the expert thing is the best thing. In theory there’s no difference between theory and practice, in practice, there’s a big difference between theory and practice.
Having said that, I’ve never done cfar, and I teach workshops monthly in Sydney and I think they are wrong to discourage sharing of their resources. As the same time I accept the idea of intellectual property being protected even if that’s not the case they are claiming.
(I’m in the process of writing up my resources into a collection)
As the same time I accept the idea of intellectual property being protected even if that’s not the case they are claiming.
I suspect that this is the real reason. Although if the much vaster sequences by Yudkowsky are freely available I don’t see it as a good justification for not making the CFAR handbook available.
It’s pretty uncharitable of you to just accuse CfAR of lying like that! If the actual reason were “Many of the explanations here are intentionally approximate or incomplete because we predict that this handbook will be leaked and we don’t want to undercut our core product,” then the handbook would have just said that.
Wait, are you invoking the principle of charity as an epistemic axiom (“assume people don’t lie”)? Why would that be truth-aligned at all?
If you didn’t mean to invoke the principle of charity, why not just say it’s likely to be incorrect based on priors, CFAR’s reputation, etc, instead of using the word “uncharitable” as an insult?
You caught me—introspecting, I think the grandparent was written in a spirit of semi-deliberate irony. (“Semi” because it just felt like the “right” thing to say there; I don’t think I put a lot of effort into modeling how various readers would interpret it.)
Roland is speculating that the real reason for intentionally incomplete explanations in the handbook is different from the stated reason, and I offered a particularly blunt phrasing (“we don’t want to undercut our core product”) of the hypothesized true reason, and suggested that that’s what the handbook would have said in that case. I think I anticipated that a lot of readers would find my proposal intuitively preposterous: “everyone knows” that no one would matter-of-factly report such a self-interested rationale (especially when writing on behalf of an organization, rather than admitting a vice among friends). That’s why the earlierscenesinthe 2009 film The Invention of Lying, or your post “Act of Charity”, are (typically) experienced as absurdist comedy rather than an inspiring and heartwarming portrayal of a more truthful world.
But it shouldn’t be absurd for the stated reason and the real reason to be the same! Particularly for an organization like CfAR which is specifically about advancing the art of rationality. And, I don’t know—I think sometimes I talk in a way that makes me seem more politically naïve than I actually am, because I feel as if the “naïve” attitude is in some way normative? (“You really think someone would do that? Just go on the internet and tell lies?”) Arguably this is somewhat ironic (being deceptive about your ability to detect deception is probably not actually the same thing as honesty), but I haven’t heretofore analyzed this behavioral pattern of mine in enough detail to potentially decide to stop doing it??
I think another factor might be that I feel guilty about being “mean” to CfAR in the great-great-great grandparent comment? (CfAR isn’t a person and doesn’t have feelings, but my friend who works there is and does.) Such that maybe the emotional need to signal that I’m still fundamentally loyal to the “mainstream rationality” tribe (despite the underlying background situation where I’ve been collaborating with you and Ben and Michael to discuss what you see as fatal deficits of integrity in “the community” as presently organized) interacted with my preëxisting tendency towards semi-performative naiveté in a way that resulted in me writing a bad blog comment? It’s a good thing you were here to hold me to account for it!
I thought your comment was fine and the irony was obvious, but this kind of misunderstanding can be easily avoided by making the straightforward reading more boring, like so:
Given that CfAR is an organization which is specifically about seeking truth, one could safely assume that if the actual reason were “Many of the explanations here are intentionally approximate or incomplete because we predict that this handbook will be leaked and we don’t want to undercut our core product,” then the handbook would have just said that. To do otherwise would be to call the whole premise into question!
Yeah, I would have expected Jessica to get it, except that I suspect she’s also executing a strategy of habitual Socratic irony (but without my additional innovation of immediately backing down and unpacking the intent when challenged), which doesn’t work when both sides of a conversation are doing it.
I actually didn’t get it. I was confused but I didn’t consciously generate the hypothesis that it was ironic.
I think I don’t share the background assumption that it is overwhelmingly obvious that CFAR wouldn’t tell the truth about this in their handbook. I also reflectively endorse a policy of calling out things that could easily be mistaken for sincere (though not obvious sarcasm), in order to ensure common knowledge.
Quick note for your model of how people interpret various kinds of writing, my initial read of your comment was to put a 60% probability on “Zack is currently undergoing a pendulum swing in the direction away from calling people out on lying, and overcompensating.” (which was wrong and/or overconfident on my part)
In theory, the expert thing is the best thing. In theory there’s no difference between theory and practice, in practice, there’s a big difference between theory and practice.
We’ve all heard this sort of thing many times, of course. The best response is probably Schopenhauer’s:
“That’s all very well in theory, but it won’t do in practice.” In this sophism you admit the premisses but deny the conclusion, in contradiction with a well-known rule of logic. The assertion is based upon an impossibility: what is right in theory must work in practice; and if it does not, there is a mistake in the theory; something has been overlooked and not allowed for; and, consequently, what is wrong in practice is wrong in theory too.
the torbert action logic framework
You are, I assume, referring to the ideas of this person? He appears to be some variety of management consultant. Is there any reason to take this “action logic” of his seriously? It seems to be yet another among the many, many self-help / management consulting / etc. “frameworks” or “systems” etc. Do any of his ideas have any empirical verification, or… well, anything, really?
That’s up to you. I’ve got a lot of value from the structure he outlines. It’s a lot more reasoned than some of the other mysterious odd things I read.
If there is something wrong with the theory and the way it maps to the practice, is it better to read more theory or do more practice and make new theories? I would suggest it depends on the person and what they have found to work in the past. And also with an awareness to the loops of bad habits—“sharpen the saw” type problems. Sometimes it’s more valuable to stop sharpening the saw, and start cutting down the tree. (rationality frame of thinking loves to sharpen more and cut less)
I can offer an explanation that might fit. Rationalists tend toward expertise mode thinking (expert from the torbert action logic framework). Behaviour like reading the book is in line with the expert behaviour.
Cfar techniques and related in-person methods are not always about being the expert, they are about doing the best thing. Being a better expert is not always the same as being the better munchkin, the better person or the person who can step out of their knowledge beliefs.
In theory, the expert thing is the best thing. In theory there’s no difference between theory and practice, in practice, there’s a big difference between theory and practice.
Having said that, I’ve never done cfar, and I teach workshops monthly in Sydney and I think they are wrong to discourage sharing of their resources. As the same time I accept the idea of intellectual property being protected even if that’s not the case they are claiming.
(I’m in the process of writing up my resources into a collection)
I suspect that this is the real reason. Although if the much vaster sequences by Yudkowsky are freely available I don’t see it as a good justification for not making the CFAR handbook available.
It’s pretty uncharitable of you to just accuse CfAR of lying like that! If the actual reason were “Many of the explanations here are intentionally approximate or incomplete because we predict that this handbook will be leaked and we don’t want to undercut our core product,” then the handbook would have just said that.
Wait, are you invoking the principle of charity as an epistemic axiom (“assume people don’t lie”)? Why would that be truth-aligned at all?
If you didn’t mean to invoke the principle of charity, why not just say it’s likely to be incorrect based on priors, CFAR’s reputation, etc, instead of using the word “uncharitable” as an insult?
You caught me—introspecting, I think the grandparent was written in a spirit of semi-deliberate irony. (“Semi” because it just felt like the “right” thing to say there; I don’t think I put a lot of effort into modeling how various readers would interpret it.)
Roland is speculating that the real reason for intentionally incomplete explanations in the handbook is different from the stated reason, and I offered a particularly blunt phrasing (“we don’t want to undercut our core product”) of the hypothesized true reason, and suggested that that’s what the handbook would have said in that case. I think I anticipated that a lot of readers would find my proposal intuitively preposterous: “everyone knows” that no one would matter-of-factly report such a self-interested rationale (especially when writing on behalf of an organization, rather than admitting a vice among friends). That’s why the earlier scenes in the 2009 film The Invention of Lying, or your post “Act of Charity”, are (typically) experienced as absurdist comedy rather than an inspiring and heartwarming portrayal of a more truthful world.
But it shouldn’t be absurd for the stated reason and the real reason to be the same! Particularly for an organization like CfAR which is specifically about advancing the art of rationality. And, I don’t know—I think sometimes I talk in a way that makes me seem more politically naïve than I actually am, because I feel as if the “naïve” attitude is in some way normative? (“You really think someone would do that? Just go on the internet and tell lies?”) Arguably this is somewhat ironic (being deceptive about your ability to detect deception is probably not actually the same thing as honesty), but I haven’t heretofore analyzed this behavioral pattern of mine in enough detail to potentially decide to stop doing it??
I think another factor might be that I feel guilty about being “mean” to CfAR in the great-great-great grandparent comment? (CfAR isn’t a person and doesn’t have feelings, but my friend who works there is and does.) Such that maybe the emotional need to signal that I’m still fundamentally loyal to the “mainstream rationality” tribe (despite the underlying background situation where I’ve been collaborating with you and Ben and Michael to discuss what you see as fatal deficits of integrity in “the community” as presently organized) interacted with my preëxisting tendency towards semi-performative naiveté in a way that resulted in me writing a bad blog comment? It’s a good thing you were here to hold me to account for it!
I thought your comment was fine and the irony was obvious, but this kind of misunderstanding can be easily avoided by making the straightforward reading more boring, like so:
Yeah, I would have expected Jessica to get it, except that I suspect she’s also executing a strategy of habitual Socratic irony (but without my additional innovation of immediately backing down and unpacking the intent when challenged), which doesn’t work when both sides of a conversation are doing it.
I actually didn’t get it. I was confused but I didn’t consciously generate the hypothesis that it was ironic.
I think I don’t share the background assumption that it is overwhelmingly obvious that CFAR wouldn’t tell the truth about this in their handbook. I also reflectively endorse a policy of calling out things that could easily be mistaken for sincere (though not obvious sarcasm), in order to ensure common knowledge.
Quick note for your model of how people interpret various kinds of writing, my initial read of your comment was to put a 60% probability on “Zack is currently undergoing a pendulum swing in the direction away from calling people out on lying, and overcompensating.” (which was wrong and/or overconfident on my part)
I wasn’t, I rather suspect them of being biased.
We’ve all heard this sort of thing many times, of course. The best response is probably Schopenhauer’s:
You are, I assume, referring to the ideas of this person? He appears to be some variety of management consultant. Is there any reason to take this “action logic” of his seriously? It seems to be yet another among the many, many self-help / management consulting / etc. “frameworks” or “systems” etc. Do any of his ideas have any empirical verification, or… well, anything, really?
That’s up to you. I’ve got a lot of value from the structure he outlines. It’s a lot more reasoned than some of the other mysterious odd things I read.
If there is something wrong with the theory and the way it maps to the practice, is it better to read more theory or do more practice and make new theories? I would suggest it depends on the person and what they have found to work in the past. And also with an awareness to the loops of bad habits—“sharpen the saw” type problems. Sometimes it’s more valuable to stop sharpening the saw, and start cutting down the tree. (rationality frame of thinking loves to sharpen more and cut less)