One angle here (which you seem to implicitly advocate?) is that including pictures of brains and talking about brain components causes people to change their minds about cognitive/philosophical matters in specific directions. If the results of that exposure are positive then it seems like it might be a good PR strategy, with interesting pedagogical applications if you were trying teach certain lessons from psychology in a vivid and convincing way.
On the other hand it also seems that the effects could be explained by certain kinds of priming mixed with the representativeness heuristic rather than detailed evidence in support of the precise claims that are being made. That is to say: its not clear to me that this phenomena might not be a good way to explain things so much as a “physical brain fallacy” (roughly: just because the brain is physical, doesn’t mean a particular claim about cognitive processes is true).
Imagine a control group who get a sales pitch (for a bad product) telling them that they should rationally calculate that it would fulfill their desires and make them happier to buy and use. The experimental group could get roughly the same pitch (for the same bad product) except their emotional reactions would be additionally described with reference to dopamine receptors and modulation of the amygdala and so on. If talking about the brain causes people to think the pitch is better and to buy a bad product it would be a bad thing rather than a good thing.
Having read the linked articles and knowing more about their details than me, does the inclusion of “brain talk” seem to function more like a fallacious trick or more like evidence? Does it look like the rhetorical technique can be used generically, or only to increase people’s beliefs in things are probably true, related to neurological facts, and that they were already refusing to accept due to some philosophical/emotional confusion having to do with the physicality of the brain?
Brain talk acts more like the ‘physical brain fallacy’ trick. See the last sentence of Weisberg et al.’s abstract:
Explanations of psychological phenomena seem to generate more public interest when they contain neuroscientific information. Even irrelevant neuroscience information in an explanation of a psychological phenomenon may interfere with people’s abilities to critically consider the underlying logic of this explanation. We tested this hypothesis by giving naïve adults, students in a neuroscience course, and neuroscience experts brief descriptions of psychological phenomena followed by one of four types of explanation, according to a 2 (good explanation vs. bad explanation) ? 2 (without neuroscience vs. with neuroscience) design. Crucially, the neuroscience information was irrelevant to the logic of the explanation, as confirmed by the expert subjects. Subjects in all three groups judged good explanations as more satisfying than bad ones. But subjects in the two nonexpert groups additionally judged that explanations with logically irrelevant neuroscience information were more satisfying than explanations without. The neuroscience information had a particularly striking effect on nonexperts’ judgments of bad explanations, masking otherwise salient problems in these explanations.
Knowledge of what persuades others can be used for good or evil. I, of course, am hoping that examples of reductionism and so on will be used to persuade people of things that are probably true.
But if it can be used to explain both true and false hypotheses, it will be used to do both. If you are trying to convince people to be more rational, you should probably first convince them that ‘explanations’ that don’t explain anything are not to be trusted.
But if it can be used to explain both true and false hypotheses, it will be used to do both.
And yet, I don’t think that excluding brain talk is pure and neutral, Using non-brain talk undermines one’s argument for both true and false hypotheses.
The message needs a messenger.
And yet! Some things are true, and others false. Using non-brain talk might be the generally less biasing thing, but it isn’t a categorically unbiasing thing.
It was not my intention to emphasize the fact that these explanations mention the brain, but rather their lack of explaining power for the premise to be described/proved. It doesn’t matter whether the statement that explains nothing is “neurological differences in brain structure are the underlying causes of schizophrenia” or “it is just common sense that the sky is blue”. Neither statement appeals to me because the writer is not using these perfectly good words to explain anything. If I read an explanation, I want it to explain something. If you want to use 7 syllable words, fine. If you want to use only words an average five-year-old knows, that is also fine. If you want every phrase to be achingly brilliant poetry, I have no problem with that. But if the words convey nothing, I will not be amused.
What the article above does is convey information about the strategy of using certain words to not convey information (and also to convey information that doesn’t necessarily support the main argument, but sounds like it does). I find it useful in the sense that it helps to realize that certain ways of not conveying information can exploit common blind spots in myself and others. I hope this realization helps me to notice these things more often in other’s writing, so that I can decrease the credibility I give such statements. And I hope it will help me to notice it more often in my writing, so I can remove such statements.
If there is a valid explanation involving the brain, the brain is more likely to be cited than if there isn’t a valid explanation involving the brain.
So the absence of the word “brain” in a given explanation weakly implies that the true explanation does not feature the brain! This implication is regardless of whether or not it is true.
So I think the only sentence of yours I disagree with is:
And I hope it will help me to notice it more often in my writing, so I can remove such statements.
I claim we’re doomed, and can only choose from among biasing statements distorting along different vectors in the idea space in which the ideas of the person being persuaded are a point, and one’s own ideas are a point.
I am unsure of the intent of the first three sentences you post above. I cannot figure out what relation they have to my post, although perhaps they are not intended as a response to it. I also am unsure what they are intended to illustrate. They seem to all be saying the same thing, and I cannot extract an explanation, description, or argument of any sort from them. If there was a point you wished to make with them that you would like me to understand, you will have to clarify.
Would you care to state the reason you think the existence of bias dooms us (I am assuming you mean humanity as a whole, here)? People can learn of the existence of bias. They will always have bias in some direction, but that doesn’t mean that they can’t learn to reduce their biases and better understand how the world works. Like an asymptote, one can get closer and closer to the truth, even if they cannot reach it. Do you feel the lack of perfection negates progress?
I have changed my mind, so I won’t try and explain it, if that’s OK?
I now hold to a more moderate but similar view; I will try and explain from scratch.
And I hope it will help me to notice it more often in my writing, so I can remove such statements.
So some words are biasing, and It may happen to be that for some concept, all relevant words are biasing. So “remove all biasing statements from my writing” is a bad heuristic where there are no unbiasing statements, so “remove all biasing statements from my writing when there is a less biasing statement I can use instead” is better.
Sure, that’s up to you. If you prefer to explain only your new viewpoint, that’s fine with me. But does your first statement cover the first three sentences of your previous post only, your initial response on bias only, or all of it? As I mentioned, I wasn’t clear on the first three sentences at all. Still, feel free to explain or not explain however you wish.
I was at first confused by your inclusion(again) of my statement about removing non-informative concepts from my writing. Since I was not talking about removing all biasing statements from my writing, I wasn’t sure why you interpreted it as such. Then I realized that lukeprog’s article was talking about non-informative statements that also happen to be good at biasing readers in a certain direction. However, removing all non-informative statements of this sort is different from removing all biasing statements, which is how I read your interpretation of it. All biasing statements belong to a different set than the set of all non-informative statements. For example, “Policy A causes the unnecessary deaths of 400 people every year” is a highly biasing statement, but also contains information (which may or may not be true, but that is an entirely different concern). On the other hand, “Neurological reasoning occurs using the left side of the brain” could be used as a biasing non-informative statement in the context of convincing someone about a certain brain function (as discussed in lukeprog’s article). Thus, the sets overlap but are not equal. I can see why you would think that removing all biasing statements is impossible. However, I think removing all non-informative statements (especially ones that happen to be strongly biasing) is not impossible, though perhaps difficult depending on the situation.
So it seems we essentially agree about non-biasing statements. They can be reduced, but not entirely eliminated. I am not sure what your position is on non-informative statements, however, as I don’t think you have addressed that. Thanks for the explanation of your views and upvoted for clarifying your position. I think I might understand some of what you are trying to say now. But feel free to let me know if you disagree.
Incidentally, the link to the spray on clothing video was really cool. I want spray on clothing; then I wouldn’t have to go through the tiresome chore of searching for clothes in a store. And they would always fit. And I could make it look however I wanted. I wish I could get some to experiment with now, to see if I could generate some clothing that would be thick enough for my tastes (I think that would be my only concern).
That video is cool, but I don’t see how it relates to the conversation you’re having. Are you saying that the guy’s explanation of how the spray-on clothing works is a good one, or a bad one, or is your point something else entirely?
HAHAHAHA. That was a copy/paste fail. I’ve updated the link to go where I meant it to go now; the spray-on clothing video has nothing to do with technical explanation. :)
One angle here (which you seem to implicitly advocate?) is that including pictures of brains and talking about brain components causes people to change their minds about cognitive/philosophical matters in specific directions. If the results of that exposure are positive then it seems like it might be a good PR strategy, with interesting pedagogical applications if you were trying teach certain lessons from psychology in a vivid and convincing way.
On the other hand it also seems that the effects could be explained by certain kinds of priming mixed with the representativeness heuristic rather than detailed evidence in support of the precise claims that are being made. That is to say: its not clear to me that this phenomena might not be a good way to explain things so much as a “physical brain fallacy” (roughly: just because the brain is physical, doesn’t mean a particular claim about cognitive processes is true).
Imagine a control group who get a sales pitch (for a bad product) telling them that they should rationally calculate that it would fulfill their desires and make them happier to buy and use. The experimental group could get roughly the same pitch (for the same bad product) except their emotional reactions would be additionally described with reference to dopamine receptors and modulation of the amygdala and so on. If talking about the brain causes people to think the pitch is better and to buy a bad product it would be a bad thing rather than a good thing.
Having read the linked articles and knowing more about their details than me, does the inclusion of “brain talk” seem to function more like a fallacious trick or more like evidence? Does it look like the rhetorical technique can be used generically, or only to increase people’s beliefs in things are probably true, related to neurological facts, and that they were already refusing to accept due to some philosophical/emotional confusion having to do with the physicality of the brain?
Brain talk acts more like the ‘physical brain fallacy’ trick. See the last sentence of Weisberg et al.’s abstract:
Knowledge of what persuades others can be used for good or evil. I, of course, am hoping that examples of reductionism and so on will be used to persuade people of things that are probably true.
But if it can be used to explain both true and false hypotheses, it will be used to do both. If you are trying to convince people to be more rational, you should probably first convince them that ‘explanations’ that don’t explain anything are not to be trusted.
And yet, I don’t think that excluding brain talk is pure and neutral, Using non-brain talk undermines one’s argument for both true and false hypotheses.
The message needs a messenger.
And yet! Some things are true, and others false. Using non-brain talk might be the generally less biasing thing, but it isn’t a categorically unbiasing thing.
It was not my intention to emphasize the fact that these explanations mention the brain, but rather their lack of explaining power for the premise to be described/proved. It doesn’t matter whether the statement that explains nothing is “neurological differences in brain structure are the underlying causes of schizophrenia” or “it is just common sense that the sky is blue”. Neither statement appeals to me because the writer is not using these perfectly good words to explain anything. If I read an explanation, I want it to explain something. If you want to use 7 syllable words, fine. If you want to use only words an average five-year-old knows, that is also fine. If you want every phrase to be achingly brilliant poetry, I have no problem with that. But if the words convey nothing, I will not be amused.
What the article above does is convey information about the strategy of using certain words to not convey information (and also to convey information that doesn’t necessarily support the main argument, but sounds like it does). I find it useful in the sense that it helps to realize that certain ways of not conveying information can exploit common blind spots in myself and others. I hope this realization helps me to notice these things more often in other’s writing, so that I can decrease the credibility I give such statements. And I hope it will help me to notice it more often in my writing, so I can remove such statements.
If there is a valid explanation involving the brain, the brain is more likely to be cited than if there isn’t a valid explanation involving the brain.
So the absence of the word “brain” in a given explanation weakly implies that the true explanation does not feature the brain! This implication is regardless of whether or not it is true.
So I think the only sentence of yours I disagree with is:
I claim we’re doomed, and can only choose from among biasing statements distorting along different vectors in the idea space in which the ideas of the person being persuaded are a point, and one’s own ideas are a point.
I am unsure of the intent of the first three sentences you post above. I cannot figure out what relation they have to my post, although perhaps they are not intended as a response to it. I also am unsure what they are intended to illustrate. They seem to all be saying the same thing, and I cannot extract an explanation, description, or argument of any sort from them. If there was a point you wished to make with them that you would like me to understand, you will have to clarify.
Would you care to state the reason you think the existence of bias dooms us (I am assuming you mean humanity as a whole, here)? People can learn of the existence of bias. They will always have bias in some direction, but that doesn’t mean that they can’t learn to reduce their biases and better understand how the world works. Like an asymptote, one can get closer and closer to the truth, even if they cannot reach it. Do you feel the lack of perfection negates progress?
I have changed my mind, so I won’t try and explain it, if that’s OK?
I now hold to a more moderate but similar view; I will try and explain from scratch.
So some words are biasing, and It may happen to be that for some concept, all relevant words are biasing. So “remove all biasing statements from my writing” is a bad heuristic where there are no unbiasing statements, so “remove all biasing statements from my writing when there is a less biasing statement I can use instead” is better.
Sure, that’s up to you. If you prefer to explain only your new viewpoint, that’s fine with me. But does your first statement cover the first three sentences of your previous post only, your initial response on bias only, or all of it? As I mentioned, I wasn’t clear on the first three sentences at all. Still, feel free to explain or not explain however you wish.
I was at first confused by your inclusion(again) of my statement about removing non-informative concepts from my writing. Since I was not talking about removing all biasing statements from my writing, I wasn’t sure why you interpreted it as such. Then I realized that lukeprog’s article was talking about non-informative statements that also happen to be good at biasing readers in a certain direction. However, removing all non-informative statements of this sort is different from removing all biasing statements, which is how I read your interpretation of it. All biasing statements belong to a different set than the set of all non-informative statements. For example, “Policy A causes the unnecessary deaths of 400 people every year” is a highly biasing statement, but also contains information (which may or may not be true, but that is an entirely different concern). On the other hand, “Neurological reasoning occurs using the left side of the brain” could be used as a biasing non-informative statement in the context of convincing someone about a certain brain function (as discussed in lukeprog’s article). Thus, the sets overlap but are not equal. I can see why you would think that removing all biasing statements is impossible. However, I think removing all non-informative statements (especially ones that happen to be strongly biasing) is not impossible, though perhaps difficult depending on the situation.
So it seems we essentially agree about non-biasing statements. They can be reduced, but not entirely eliminated. I am not sure what your position is on non-informative statements, however, as I don’t think you have addressed that. Thanks for the explanation of your views and upvoted for clarifying your position. I think I might understand some of what you are trying to say now. But feel free to let me know if you disagree.
Agreed. I try to teach people about technical explanation, too.
Incidentally, the link to the spray on clothing video was really cool. I want spray on clothing; then I wouldn’t have to go through the tiresome chore of searching for clothes in a store. And they would always fit. And I could make it look however I wanted. I wish I could get some to experiment with now, to see if I could generate some clothing that would be thick enough for my tastes (I think that would be my only concern).
That video is cool, but I don’t see how it relates to the conversation you’re having. Are you saying that the guy’s explanation of how the spray-on clothing works is a good one, or a bad one, or is your point something else entirely?
HAHAHAHA. That was a copy/paste fail. I’ve updated the link to go where I meant it to go now; the spray-on clothing video has nothing to do with technical explanation. :)
Okay, that makes more sense. That’s where I thought the link was going before somebody mentioned spray-on clothing in the reply.
For people who want to see the spray-clothing video, it’s here.