That being said, it seems a little defeatist. Perhaps there’s some way to really choose your fascinations...
Choosing fascinations is very much a system 1 game.
Ever notice how smart people are more likely to get into math and athletic people are more likely to get into sports? Heck, you can watch someone go from “sensitive artist” to “bodybuilder” about as fast as it takes to realize that their body would do well at the latter.
I’ve been fairly successful choosing my fascinations, both in the sense of system 2 successfully influencing system 1 and in the sense of being happy with what holds my interest. The trick is to get close to system 1 so you can understand what it’s trying to say and so that you know how to talk so that it’ll listen.
“Focusing” by Gendlin is probably a good place to start, even if it sounds a bit “new agey”.
“Focusing” by Gendlin is probably a good place to start, even if it sounds a bit “new agey”
That’s the same Gendlin, by the way, who coined the Litany of Gendlin. And there isn’t actually anything particularly new-agey about Focusing except the name. (Which I think is horrible, because it gives the impression of a diametrically opposite mental state than the one required.)
In LW terms, Focusing equals Actually Being Curious, i.e. meeting yourself with an actual desire to know or discover something. (A rather basic prerequisite for introspection, actually.)
The concept is totally legit, but I do think more than just the name that comes off “new agey”. I certainly got that impression when reading the book and so did a few people I recommended it to. So now I add that to the disclaimer so people will know to anticipate that and not take it as evidence that its not awesome.
The name didn’t sit right with me for a while too since “focusing” as applied to mental processes usually makes you think of honing in on one particular thing while shutting things out. I think what he had in mind was more like looking at your mind through a microscope where you start seeing everything as a blurry mess that resolves into focus through this process—and that actually seems to fit to me, if not well spelled out by the word “focusing”. If I had to pick a name off the top of my head, I might go with “mental grain refinement”.
Agreed that it the payload is roughly equivalent to Actually Being Curious, but I think it’s important to not let the book get rounded down to that. Not only does it paint a pretty clear picture on how to actually do it as well as giving you a frame work to work under, it applies to far more things than one might think (including, for example, “lotteries of fascinations”), so it would be a shame to get it pigeon holed.
By the way, you still working on all the mind hacking stuff? I have been for a few years and I think it’s silly that I haven’t yet approached you to chat and compare notes.
looking at your mind through a microscope where you start seeing everything as a blurry mess that resolves into focus through this process—and that actually seems to fit to me, if not well spelled out by the word “focusing”
Yep. It makes sense in that context, of course.
If I had to pick a name off the top of my head, I might go with “mental grain refinement”
I’d suggest “Tuning In”, except that the youth these days don’t actually turn knobs to tune in a radio station any more either. Even cameras auto-focus these days! ;-)
(The NLP and hypnosis folks tend to call similar processes “trans-derivational search”, but I wouldn’t wish that term on anybody who’s not a specialist.)
applies to far more things than one might think (including, for example, “lotteries of fascinations”)
I’m curious how you’d apply it. I mean, removing blocks to interest in a subject… boredom, disgust, etc. predicated on bad experiences or subliminally-absorbed stereotypes, I can see that. But building an interest? I guess I haven’t done much research into more generative techniques.
By the way, you still working on all the mind hacking stuff? I have been for a few years and I think it’s silly that I haven’t yet approached you to chat and compare notes.
Sillier still that I haven’t organized all my notes yet. (Granted, I’m coming up on ten years’ worth now.) And yes, yes I am still working on all that stuff. I just haven’t been seriously promoting anything for sale for some years now, as I’ve been focused on finding methods for dealing with my worst blocks. That work is getting really close to done now, though… I hope. ;-)
(The NLP and hypnosis folks tend to call similar processes “trans-derivational search”, but I wouldn’t wish that term on anybody who’s not a specialist.)
I think the “focusing” thing is a bit more than just a transderivational search—or rather a specific application of the same thing. “focusing” contains a lot of instructions on where to point your curiosity and what you can get out of it.
I’m curious how you’d apply it. I mean, removing blocks to interest in a subject… boredom, disgust, etc. predicated on bad experiences or subliminally-absorbed stereotypes, I can see that. But building an interest? I guess I haven’t done much research into more generative techniques.
Well, removing blocks is definitely a big part of it. With no blocks there it’s just a conversation with system 1 about what’s important—and that part can often just happen on its own.
I think your “organize your desk” video is a good example on the small scale. People aren’t motivated to do it not just because they are blocking themselves with aversive associations but also because they’re not associating the good of the clean desk with the act of organizing it. Applied to interest in a subject is just a larger scale application of the same stuff. Instead of one picture of a clean desk, it’s a whole series of possible futures and possible payoffs and the like.
My strongest example—perhaps because I was most conscious of it having not yet integrated the skills—actually predates my departure on this mind hacking journey and in fact applies to the motivation I had to do it.
When I first realized that there’s big low hanging fruit it wasn’t a complete automatic takeover. I was still sorta interested in other hobbies which (according to system2) didn’t really pay off the same. And like, do you realize how important it is if half the stuff it seems like hypnosis might be able to do is actually possible?
So I had to deliberately spend some time thinking about the alternate ways I wanted to spend my time and actually visualizing where they’d go and what I’d get out of it. And doing the same for the much more uncertain future where I dive into this with more than mild curiosity. And then having deflated alternatives and connected it more strongly with the potential rewards, it had earned my fascination big time (since then it has been a fairly automatically self reinforcing thing). And the motivating images have changed, of course, as I get a more realistic/detailed idea of whats doable/desirable.
Sillier still that I haven’t organized all my notes yet. (Granted, I’m coming up on ten years’ worth now.) And yes, yes I am still working on all that stuff. I just haven’t been seriously promoting anything for sale for some years now, as I’ve been focused on finding methods for dealing with my worst blocks. That work is getting really close to done now, though… I hope. ;-)
Nah, that part is hard. I’m in a similar place myself, though not 10 years worth. I’ve been trying to organize them into blog posts as an easy to get down form of thoughts, but then I kinda got stuck tying the last pieces together and I’m backlogged 30 or so posts. But I’m “close” :). It tends to help when I have an interested person to bounce ideas off of and serve as a foil for organizing my thoughts (which I do have, and need to make more use of!).
Anyway, even if not as done as it “should” be for a vaguely meaningful sense of “should”, I wouldn’t call it silly the way it’s silly to not have said “yo, you wanna chat sometime and compare notes?”
Yo, you wanna chat sometime and compare—er, I mean organize notes?
Choosing fascinations is very much a system 1 game.
Ever notice how smart people are more likely to get into math and athletic people are more likely to get into sports? Heck, you can watch someone go from “sensitive artist” to “bodybuilder” about as fast as it takes to realize that their body would do well at the latter.
I’ve been fairly successful choosing my fascinations, both in the sense of system 2 successfully influencing system 1 and in the sense of being happy with what holds my interest. The trick is to get close to system 1 so you can understand what it’s trying to say and so that you know how to talk so that it’ll listen.
“Focusing” by Gendlin is probably a good place to start, even if it sounds a bit “new agey”.
That’s the same Gendlin, by the way, who coined the Litany of Gendlin. And there isn’t actually anything particularly new-agey about Focusing except the name. (Which I think is horrible, because it gives the impression of a diametrically opposite mental state than the one required.)
In LW terms, Focusing equals Actually Being Curious, i.e. meeting yourself with an actual desire to know or discover something. (A rather basic prerequisite for introspection, actually.)
Mhmm.
The concept is totally legit, but I do think more than just the name that comes off “new agey”. I certainly got that impression when reading the book and so did a few people I recommended it to. So now I add that to the disclaimer so people will know to anticipate that and not take it as evidence that its not awesome.
The name didn’t sit right with me for a while too since “focusing” as applied to mental processes usually makes you think of honing in on one particular thing while shutting things out. I think what he had in mind was more like looking at your mind through a microscope where you start seeing everything as a blurry mess that resolves into focus through this process—and that actually seems to fit to me, if not well spelled out by the word “focusing”. If I had to pick a name off the top of my head, I might go with “mental grain refinement”.
Agreed that it the payload is roughly equivalent to Actually Being Curious, but I think it’s important to not let the book get rounded down to that. Not only does it paint a pretty clear picture on how to actually do it as well as giving you a frame work to work under, it applies to far more things than one might think (including, for example, “lotteries of fascinations”), so it would be a shame to get it pigeon holed.
By the way, you still working on all the mind hacking stuff? I have been for a few years and I think it’s silly that I haven’t yet approached you to chat and compare notes.
Yep. It makes sense in that context, of course.
I’d suggest “Tuning In”, except that the youth these days don’t actually turn knobs to tune in a radio station any more either. Even cameras auto-focus these days! ;-)
(The NLP and hypnosis folks tend to call similar processes “trans-derivational search”, but I wouldn’t wish that term on anybody who’s not a specialist.)
I’m curious how you’d apply it. I mean, removing blocks to interest in a subject… boredom, disgust, etc. predicated on bad experiences or subliminally-absorbed stereotypes, I can see that. But building an interest? I guess I haven’t done much research into more generative techniques.
Sillier still that I haven’t organized all my notes yet. (Granted, I’m coming up on ten years’ worth now.) And yes, yes I am still working on all that stuff. I just haven’t been seriously promoting anything for sale for some years now, as I’ve been focused on finding methods for dealing with my worst blocks. That work is getting really close to done now, though… I hope. ;-)
I think the “focusing” thing is a bit more than just a transderivational search—or rather a specific application of the same thing. “focusing” contains a lot of instructions on where to point your curiosity and what you can get out of it.
Well, removing blocks is definitely a big part of it. With no blocks there it’s just a conversation with system 1 about what’s important—and that part can often just happen on its own.
I think your “organize your desk” video is a good example on the small scale. People aren’t motivated to do it not just because they are blocking themselves with aversive associations but also because they’re not associating the good of the clean desk with the act of organizing it. Applied to interest in a subject is just a larger scale application of the same stuff. Instead of one picture of a clean desk, it’s a whole series of possible futures and possible payoffs and the like.
My strongest example—perhaps because I was most conscious of it having not yet integrated the skills—actually predates my departure on this mind hacking journey and in fact applies to the motivation I had to do it.
When I first realized that there’s big low hanging fruit it wasn’t a complete automatic takeover. I was still sorta interested in other hobbies which (according to system2) didn’t really pay off the same. And like, do you realize how important it is if half the stuff it seems like hypnosis might be able to do is actually possible?
So I had to deliberately spend some time thinking about the alternate ways I wanted to spend my time and actually visualizing where they’d go and what I’d get out of it. And doing the same for the much more uncertain future where I dive into this with more than mild curiosity. And then having deflated alternatives and connected it more strongly with the potential rewards, it had earned my fascination big time (since then it has been a fairly automatically self reinforcing thing). And the motivating images have changed, of course, as I get a more realistic/detailed idea of whats doable/desirable.
Nah, that part is hard. I’m in a similar place myself, though not 10 years worth. I’ve been trying to organize them into blog posts as an easy to get down form of thoughts, but then I kinda got stuck tying the last pieces together and I’m backlogged 30 or so posts. But I’m “close” :). It tends to help when I have an interested person to bounce ideas off of and serve as a foil for organizing my thoughts (which I do have, and need to make more use of!).
Anyway, even if not as done as it “should” be for a vaguely meaningful sense of “should”, I wouldn’t call it silly the way it’s silly to not have said “yo, you wanna chat sometime and compare notes?”
Yo, you wanna chat sometime and compare—er, I mean organize notes?