I don’t see that. Perhaps we have different ideas about what “well regulated” could mean, or about the meaning of “infringed” in the 2A. I’m aware that this is an issue on which feelings run (to me) surprisingly high in the US, so it’s with trepidation that I say any more, but: it seems to me that (1) it surely can’t be (or at least shouldn’t be) a constitutionally-guaranteed right for individuals to own hydrogen bombs or large quantities of sarin gas, so (2) there must in fact be restrictions on what Arms the people may keep and bear, and (3) one obvious way to choose what restrictions would be to look at the context provided in the 2A itself, and to ask: What do people need in order to form a well-regulated militia?
The militia is to be well-regulated; the right to bear arms is not. As for capital weapons, such a nuclear weapons and nerve gas, the Constitution has a separate provision which forbids individuals to own capital ships, which I think is reasonably extended to cover new capital weapons. (Although strictly speaking, it should be extended by amendment, not by pretending it already says what we want it to.)
That sounds really broken. -- Still, on reflection I don’t see that this can possibly be what the people who wrote the 13th Amendment had in mind; if it were, they’d have added “or imprisonment” or something of the kind. Is any kind of forced labour required of people jailed for nonpayment of child support? I’m pretty sure it isn’t. And while I’m not a big fan of any kind of imprisonment without trial, it’s hard to see how the police could do their job if it were completely forbidden. (You catch someone robbing a bank at night. Do you have to convene a jury before you can put them in handcuffs or lock them in a cell? Surely not.)
Child support under threat of imprisonment -is- forced labor.
Yeah, and that’s absolutely ridiculous and unjust, no question. But that happens not to be one of the bits in my random sample. I wasn’t claiming to list every provision in the US constitution; just a sample, to see what fraction could reasonably be said to be “a dead letter”. The answer appears to be: a very small fraction.
If one part of the Constitution is ignored, the entire Constitution is effectively a dead letter.
If one part of the Constitution is ignored, the entire Constitution is effectively a dead letter.
I wouldn’t say that. We live in an imperfect world, with especially imperfect governments.
But I do say that the current rejection of the 9th and 10th amendments does turn the constitution on it’s head, and fundamentally transforms what was a government of delegated and enumerated powers into a government that rules,and the peasants will take it and like it.
The militia is to be well-regulated; the right to bear arms is not.
It seems to me that part of the regulation of a militia would involve deciding who bears what arms. That’s certainly the case in an actual army. For the avoidance of doubt, I’m not saying that the words “well-regulated” mean that there should be restrictions on exactly who can bear what arms under what circumstances. Only that (1) “the right to do X shall not be infringed” doesn’t, to me, imply that there must be no restrictions at all on doing X, and that (2) the context of a “well-regulated militia” seems to make it particularly hard to claim that the 2A makes it illegitimate to have the sorts of regulation that a well-regulated militia might have.
provision which forbids individuals to own capital ships
I can’t find quite that; only a provision forbidding states to “own [...] ships of war in time of peace”. Have I missed something? In any case, it’s not clear to me what distinction you’re drawing between “capital” weapons and others (it seems like some reasonable interpretations of that term might justify some restrictions on ownership of guns, which AIUI you are opposed to).
Child support under threat of imprisonment -is- forced labor.
On the grounds that you have to work to get the money to pay? I’m not convinced. If you can get the money from savings, or by selling other assets, or by asking friends to make donations, the child support authorities will not mind. Again, I’m not defending the US child support system (not least because I don’t know enough about it to know what I think) but it seems about as obvious to me as anything can be that it isn’t the same thing as slavery, which is what the 13th Amendment was attempting to forbid.
If one part of the Constitution is ignored, the entire Constitution is effectively a dead letter.
I’m not sure what to say other than: No, I completely disagree, and that seems an obviously unreasonable position. By all means say that if any part of the Constitution is ignored, then the Constitution is no longer being given the authority it should have; but that is an entirely different thing from saying that the whole thing is a dead letter.
It seems to me that part of the regulation of a militia would involve deciding who bears what arms. That’s certainly the case in an actual army. For the avoidance of doubt, I’m not saying that the words “well-regulated” mean that there should be restrictions on exactly who can bear what arms under what circumstances. Only that (1) “the right to do X shall not be infringed” doesn’t, to me, imply that there must be no restrictions at all on doing X, and that (2) the context of a “well-regulated militia” seems to make it particularly hard to claim that the 2A makes it illegitimate to have the sorts of regulation that a well-regulated militia might have.
“Shall not be infringed” is pretty clear language. And you can -kind of- finagle the language to imply that regulation is acceptable, but it requires finagling, which doesn’t speak to an intent to faithfully interpret.
I can’t find quite that; only a provision forbidding states to “own [...] ships of war in time of peace”. Have I missed something? In any case, it’s not clear to me what distinction you’re drawing between “capital” weapons and others (it seems like some reasonable interpretations of that term might justify some restrictions on ownership of guns, which AIUI you are opposed to).
Hm. I misremembered that article. So apparently it didn’t forbid individuals from owning what were, at the time, weapons which posed significant threats to the government.
On the grounds that you have to work to get the money to pay? I’m not convinced. If you can get the money from savings, or by selling other assets, or by asking friends to make donations, the child support authorities will not mind. Again, I’m not defending the US child support system (not least because I don’t know enough about it to know what I think) but it seems about as obvious to me as anything can be that it isn’t the same thing as slavery, which is what the 13th Amendment was attempting to forbid.
For the poor, or poorly-connected, it amounts to the same thing.
I’m not sure what to say other than: No, I completely disagree, and that seems an obviously unreasonable position. By all means say that if any part of the Constitution is ignored, then the Constitution is no longer being given the authority it should have; but that is an entirely different thing from saying that the whole thing is a dead letter.
What makes it substantively different? If, from a practical perspective, we only do what it says when we agree with what it says in the first place, what does it substantively provide?
“Shall not be infringed” is pretty clear language.
It doesn’t seem to be, since to you it’s obvious that it implies “no regulation at all” and to me it’s obvious that it doesn’t! (Though we seem to be agreed that in fact there should be some regulation of individuals’ rights to own some kinds of weapons.)
So apparently it didn’t forbid individuals [...]
Apparently. Perhaps it never occurred to anyone at the time that there was a substantial possibility of individuals owning such dangerous weapons.
For the poor, or poorly-connected, it amounts to the same thing.
There are probably people for whom imposing a fine on them would leave them no option but to turn to prostitution. If so, does that mean that having laws that impose fines on people is the same thing as enforcing prostitution?
This all seems terribly overstated to me. If you and I enter into a contract that involves my doing some work for you, is that “forced labour”? I mean, it’s certainly labour I have to do, but it certainly isn’t slavery under normal circumstances. (Perhaps if the contract said “OrphanWilde will pay gjm $10, in return for which gjm will do whatever OrphanWilde requires for the remainder of his life”. Such contracts are usually considered invalid.) I don’t see that being required to pay child support is different in kind. It may be unjust or counterproductive, but it’s a far cry from being slavery. (Just as with my example of a contract, it’s possible to imagine cases so extreme that maybe they should be called slavery: e.g., someone is required to pay his ex-wife $1M/year for the next 30 years despite being neither very rich nor possessed of skills anyone wants to pay millions a year for. But I bet that, just as with my example of a contract, those are not realistic cases.)
The militia is to be well-regulated; the right to bear arms is not. As for capital weapons, such a nuclear weapons and nerve gas, the Constitution has a separate provision which forbids individuals to own capital ships, which I think is reasonably extended to cover new capital weapons. (Although strictly speaking, it should be extended by amendment, not by pretending it already says what we want it to.)
Child support under threat of imprisonment -is- forced labor.
If one part of the Constitution is ignored, the entire Constitution is effectively a dead letter.
I wouldn’t say that. We live in an imperfect world, with especially imperfect governments.
But I do say that the current rejection of the 9th and 10th amendments does turn the constitution on it’s head, and fundamentally transforms what was a government of delegated and enumerated powers into a government that rules,and the peasants will take it and like it.
It seems to me that part of the regulation of a militia would involve deciding who bears what arms. That’s certainly the case in an actual army. For the avoidance of doubt, I’m not saying that the words “well-regulated” mean that there should be restrictions on exactly who can bear what arms under what circumstances. Only that (1) “the right to do X shall not be infringed” doesn’t, to me, imply that there must be no restrictions at all on doing X, and that (2) the context of a “well-regulated militia” seems to make it particularly hard to claim that the 2A makes it illegitimate to have the sorts of regulation that a well-regulated militia might have.
I can’t find quite that; only a provision forbidding states to “own [...] ships of war in time of peace”. Have I missed something? In any case, it’s not clear to me what distinction you’re drawing between “capital” weapons and others (it seems like some reasonable interpretations of that term might justify some restrictions on ownership of guns, which AIUI you are opposed to).
On the grounds that you have to work to get the money to pay? I’m not convinced. If you can get the money from savings, or by selling other assets, or by asking friends to make donations, the child support authorities will not mind. Again, I’m not defending the US child support system (not least because I don’t know enough about it to know what I think) but it seems about as obvious to me as anything can be that it isn’t the same thing as slavery, which is what the 13th Amendment was attempting to forbid.
I’m not sure what to say other than: No, I completely disagree, and that seems an obviously unreasonable position. By all means say that if any part of the Constitution is ignored, then the Constitution is no longer being given the authority it should have; but that is an entirely different thing from saying that the whole thing is a dead letter.
“Shall not be infringed” is pretty clear language. And you can -kind of- finagle the language to imply that regulation is acceptable, but it requires finagling, which doesn’t speak to an intent to faithfully interpret.
Hm. I misremembered that article. So apparently it didn’t forbid individuals from owning what were, at the time, weapons which posed significant threats to the government.
For the poor, or poorly-connected, it amounts to the same thing.
What makes it substantively different? If, from a practical perspective, we only do what it says when we agree with what it says in the first place, what does it substantively provide?
It doesn’t seem to be, since to you it’s obvious that it implies “no regulation at all” and to me it’s obvious that it doesn’t! (Though we seem to be agreed that in fact there should be some regulation of individuals’ rights to own some kinds of weapons.)
Apparently. Perhaps it never occurred to anyone at the time that there was a substantial possibility of individuals owning such dangerous weapons.
There are probably people for whom imposing a fine on them would leave them no option but to turn to prostitution. If so, does that mean that having laws that impose fines on people is the same thing as enforcing prostitution?
This all seems terribly overstated to me. If you and I enter into a contract that involves my doing some work for you, is that “forced labour”? I mean, it’s certainly labour I have to do, but it certainly isn’t slavery under normal circumstances. (Perhaps if the contract said “OrphanWilde will pay gjm $10, in return for which gjm will do whatever OrphanWilde requires for the remainder of his life”. Such contracts are usually considered invalid.) I don’t see that being required to pay child support is different in kind. It may be unjust or counterproductive, but it’s a far cry from being slavery. (Just as with my example of a contract, it’s possible to imagine cases so extreme that maybe they should be called slavery: e.g., someone is required to pay his ex-wife $1M/year for the next 30 years despite being neither very rich nor possessed of skills anyone wants to pay millions a year for. But I bet that, just as with my example of a contract, those are not realistic cases.)