Interpreting relativism as “thinking something is real makes it real” is a strawman; no individual subject makes such a map-territory error. Relativism means that truth is a two+ place predicate.
Here’s analogy. Say it’s a few days ago and I haven’t made this post. At that time I believe that it has not yet been determined whether I will make the post.
Later I have made the post. Then I believe that it has now already been determined.
Are these beliefs incompatible? No. They’re both true in the ordinary common-sense way.
And this is possible because they’re relative to different reference frames. All spaciotemporal references are indexical (i.e. in some way starting from a spaciotemporally local center of reference), most obviously explicitly indexical ones like “me” and “now”.
The relativity/relativism thing isn’t just nominal. Relativity means references are resolved differently depending on the time and place of the observer, and paying attention to these different resolutions is critical to avoid paradox.
There is no view from nowhere. All “third person perspectives” are first person perspectives from a different time and place.
Interpreting relativism as “thinking something is real makes it real” is a strawman; no individual subject makes such a map-territory error.
People make all sorts of errors.
Relativism means that truth is a two+ place predicate.
Relativism is a family of claims. The specific claim depends on what is in the two places.
Here’s analogy. Say it’s a few days ago and I haven’t made this post. At that time I believe that it has not yet been determined whether I will make the post.
Later I have made the post. Then I believe that it has now already been determined.
Are these beliefs incompatible?
Yes. “is determined” and “is not determined” are incompatible.
Determinism means that the whole future is determined at any point in time. That means that at time T1, your belief that your decision at time T2 is not determined is a false belief.
No. They’re both true in the ordinary common-sense way.
They can’t both be true. But someone who doesn’t understand determinism could hold both beliefs. That isn’t very significant.
And this is possible because they’re relative to different reference frames. All spaciotemporal references are indexical
Says who? Where does it say that determinism is a “spatiotemporal reference”?
The relativity/relativism thing isn’t just nominal. Relativity means references are resolved differently depending on the time and place of the observer, and paying attention to these different resolutions is critical to avoid paradox.
Relativity does not assert that everything is relative to an observer, and in fact insists that some things, such as the speed of light, are not.
Since you don’t have a basis for saying that everything is relative, you need a specific reason for asserting that determinism is relative.
There is no view from nowhere. All “third person perspectives” are first person perspectives from a different time and place.
It was confusing that I used the word “determined” in the analogy. The meaning is clearer if I say it has “already happened” at the later time and not the previous time.
Since you don’t have a basis for saying that everything is relative, you need a specific reason for asserting that determinism is relative.
Burden of proof issue. I’ve explicated a metaphysics that claims that whether something has been determined (i.e. is independent of future choices) depends on the standpoint. You claim this metaphysics is wrong. Your argument was that the third-person view overrides the first-person view. My argument is that this is wrong because of, among other things, relativity. Now you’re saying I need a “specific reason” for asserting that determinism is relative. But I’ve refuted your argument, which is that the third-person view in-general overrides the first-person view.
The positive case is the explication of the metaphysics! You have not located a contradiction in it. This doesn’t prove it to be true but I have never claimed to have such a proof.
Says who?
It’s relatively clear if you think physically (how could any observer even potentially imagine accessing a view that isn’t from a place? Their imagining-accessing proceeds starting from their own time and place; see deixis). Besides this, see Nagel and Brian Cantwell Smith, who have more detailed arguments.
It was confusing that I used the word “determined” in the analogy. The meaning is clearer if I say it has “already happened” at the later time and not the previous time.
That’s clearly true, but it’s harder to see the connection to determinism.
You claim this metaphysics is wrong.
I claim it’s insufficently supported. You have a version of the claim that applies to spatio-temporal objects, but determinism isn’t a spatio temporal object, it’s a putative property of the universe as a whole.
Your argument was that the third-person view overrides the first-person view.
I point out that that is what this audience believes, so the burden is on you to argue otherwise.
Now you’re saying I need a “specific reason” for asserting that determinism is relative.
Relativity does not say that determinism is relative, so you need another argument.
But I’ve refuted your argument, which is that the third-person view in-general overrides the first-person view.
Disagreement is not refutation. If you had an argument that proved relativism to be true of everyhthing whatsoever, then that would be a refutation—but all the arguments you are resting apply only to specific categories.
You have not located a contradiction in it.
Non contradiction is not a sufficient criterion of truth.
This doesn’t prove it to be true but I have never claimed to have such a proof.
So you agree that your theory is insufficiently supported?
It’s relatively clear if you think physically (how could any observer even potentially imagine accessing a view that isn’t from a place
Look at google Earth. This is a solved problem.
Its entirely true that some kinds of objective, mathematical science require things to be indexed to an observer. But,so long as you are dealing with quantifiable physical properties ,it is still possible to predict exactly how things will appear to an observer other than yourself. That kind of thing is much more objective than subjective
On the other hand , there is another set of arguments,such as Nagel’s “what is it like to be a bat” ,which tend to the conclusion that subjective experience cannot be captured mathematically at all. You might be able to capture the XYZ coordinates of a bat ,and it’s velocity and so on, but that tells you very little about its inner world,its subjective, sensations and feelings.
Qualiaphilic arguments go much further in the direction of “view from nowhere” than physics or maths based arguments. Relativity goes a little further than classsical physics,because it holds a larger set of properties to be observed dependent … energy velocity and momentum in addition to location. But that still falls very far short of
full subjectivism.
But it’s still not clear how Chalmers or Nagel style arguments, that deal with consciousness and subjectivity would relate to determinism.
Interpreting relativism as “thinking something is real makes it real” is a strawman; no individual subject makes such a map-territory error. Relativism means that truth is a two+ place predicate.
Here’s analogy. Say it’s a few days ago and I haven’t made this post. At that time I believe that it has not yet been determined whether I will make the post.
Later I have made the post. Then I believe that it has now already been determined.
Are these beliefs incompatible? No. They’re both true in the ordinary common-sense way. And this is possible because they’re relative to different reference frames. All spaciotemporal references are indexical (i.e. in some way starting from a spaciotemporally local center of reference), most obviously explicitly indexical ones like “me” and “now”.
The relativity/relativism thing isn’t just nominal. Relativity means references are resolved differently depending on the time and place of the observer, and paying attention to these different resolutions is critical to avoid paradox.
There is no view from nowhere. All “third person perspectives” are first person perspectives from a different time and place.
People make all sorts of errors.
Relativism is a family of claims. The specific claim depends on what is in the two places.
Yes. “is determined” and “is not determined” are incompatible.
Determinism means that the whole future is determined at any point in time. That means that at time T1, your belief that your decision at time T2 is not determined is a false belief.
They can’t both be true. But someone who doesn’t understand determinism could hold both beliefs. That isn’t very significant.
Says who? Where does it say that determinism is a “spatiotemporal reference”?
Relativity does not assert that everything is relative to an observer, and in fact insists that some things, such as the speed of light, are not.
Since you don’t have a basis for saying that everything is relative, you need a specific reason for asserting that determinism is relative.
Says who?
It was confusing that I used the word “determined” in the analogy. The meaning is clearer if I say it has “already happened” at the later time and not the previous time.
Burden of proof issue. I’ve explicated a metaphysics that claims that whether something has been determined (i.e. is independent of future choices) depends on the standpoint. You claim this metaphysics is wrong. Your argument was that the third-person view overrides the first-person view. My argument is that this is wrong because of, among other things, relativity. Now you’re saying I need a “specific reason” for asserting that determinism is relative. But I’ve refuted your argument, which is that the third-person view in-general overrides the first-person view.
The positive case is the explication of the metaphysics! You have not located a contradiction in it. This doesn’t prove it to be true but I have never claimed to have such a proof.
It’s relatively clear if you think physically (how could any observer even potentially imagine accessing a view that isn’t from a place? Their imagining-accessing proceeds starting from their own time and place; see deixis). Besides this, see Nagel and Brian Cantwell Smith, who have more detailed arguments.
That’s clearly true, but it’s harder to see the connection to determinism.
I claim it’s insufficently supported. You have a version of the claim that applies to spatio-temporal objects, but determinism isn’t a spatio temporal object, it’s a putative property of the universe as a whole.
I point out that that is what this audience believes, so the burden is on you to argue otherwise.
Relativity does not say that determinism is relative, so you need another argument.
Disagreement is not refutation. If you had an argument that proved relativism to be true of everyhthing whatsoever, then that would be a refutation—but all the arguments you are resting apply only to specific categories.
Non contradiction is not a sufficient criterion of truth.
So you agree that your theory is insufficiently supported?
Look at google Earth. This is a solved problem.
Its entirely true that some kinds of objective, mathematical science require things to be indexed to an observer. But,so long as you are dealing with quantifiable physical properties ,it is still possible to predict exactly how things will appear to an observer other than yourself. That kind of thing is much more objective than subjective
On the other hand , there is another set of arguments,such as Nagel’s “what is it like to be a bat” ,which tend to the conclusion that subjective experience cannot be captured mathematically at all. You might be able to capture the XYZ coordinates of a bat ,and it’s velocity and so on, but that tells you very little about its inner world,its subjective, sensations and feelings.
Qualiaphilic arguments go much further in the direction of “view from nowhere” than physics or maths based arguments. Relativity goes a little further than classsical physics,because it holds a larger set of properties to be observed dependent … energy velocity and momentum in addition to location. But that still falls very far short of
full subjectivism.
But it’s still not clear how Chalmers or Nagel style arguments, that deal with consciousness and subjectivity would relate to determinism.