And it’s not as if his books stand a chance of converting people who are already religious...the dismissive attitude that comes through in his writing is exactly what WON’T make people really change their minds.
You (and a lot of people) say that, but I haven’t seen evidence presented that they don’t work—just people’s models of other people.
Dr Baggini, among others, has claimed that the “new atheists” are too strident, and that they only antagonise moderate atheists (see The New Atheist Movement is destructive, though there is something of a recantation two years later in Religion’s truce with science can’t hold). I disagree, for two reasons.
Firstly, people like Richard Dawkins are really not very strident. Dawkin’s book, The God Delusion, is quiet and scholarly. It takes each of the arguments put forward by religious people, and dissects them one by one. It’s true that, having done this, he sets forth his conclusions quite bluntly. That seems to me to be a good thing. If your conclusions are stifled by tortuous euphemisms, nobody takes much notice. Just as in science, simple plain words are best.
The second, and more important, reason that I like Dawkin’s approach is that I suspect it’s the only approach that has much effect. There is a direct analogy with my own efforts to stop universities giving BSc degrees in subjects that are not science. Worse, they are actively anti-science. Take for example, homeopathy, the medicine that contains no medicine. I started by writing polite letters to vice chancellors. Usually they didn’t even have the courtesy to reply. All efforts to tackle the problem through the “proper channels” failed. The only thing that has worked was public derision. A combination of internal moles and Freedom of Information Act requests unearthed what was being taught on these courses. Like Westminster’s assertion that “amethysts emit high Yin energy”. Disclosure of such nonsense and headlines like
Professor Geoffrey Petts of the University of Westminster says they “are not teaching pseudo-science”. The facts show this is not true
are certainly somewhat strident. But they have worked. Forget the proper channels if you want results. Mock what deserves to be mocked.
Or, as Mencken put it decades ago:
One horse-laugh is worth ten thousand syllogisms. It is not only more effective; it is also vastly more intelligent.
I suspect your true rejection is the claim that Dawkins is “unnecessarily critical”. Unfortunately, this usually means “critical at all”.
.One horse-laugh is worth ten thousand syllogisms. It is not only more effective; it is also vastly more intelligent.
Probably true. Very depressing. I don’t want to believe that I live in a society where people have to be embarrassed into changing their minds.
Also, I’m changing my opinion on whether or not Dawkins does convert people...a number of comments have been made in this thread about people having friends whose final conversion to atheist was made after reading ‘The God Delusion’ and similar books. Why not, I guess.
One horse-laugh is worth ten thousand syllogisms. It is not only more effective; it is also vastly more intelligent.
I don’t want to believe that I live in a society where people have to be embarrassed into changing their minds.
This has been a wonderful thread. It has demonstrated in many ways that many if not most people are not primarily moved by reason or evidence, and are instead moved by the social considerations of their beliefs. Why don’t you want to believe what is manifestly true?
On the rudeness of Dawkins. By the standards of the taboo on criticism of religion, he is rude. That taboo is what keeps the nonsense alive.
By the ordinary standards that other ideas have to live by, he is a perfect gentleman.
Why don’t you want to believe what is manifestly true?
I’m sorry if I was unclear in what I mean by ‘don’t want to believe it.’ I do want to believe things that are true...therefore, if it’s true that humans are more moved by social consideration than reason, then I want to believe that. I don’t like it, but pretending it’s not true won’t change that. But if I had a choice between living in that world, or moving to a world where humans were more swayed by reason than social consideration, I would pick the latter. Just like I’d pick a world without human trafficking and sex slaves in it over a world with them.
You (and a lot of people) say that, but I haven’t seen evidence presented that they don’t work—just people’s models of other people.
However, I note David Colquhon’s discussion of how he killed the study of homeopathy at several UK universities:
Or, as Mencken put it decades ago:
I suspect your true rejection is the claim that Dawkins is “unnecessarily critical”. Unfortunately, this usually means “critical at all”.
.One horse-laugh is worth ten thousand syllogisms. It is not only more effective; it is also vastly more intelligent.
Probably true. Very depressing. I don’t want to believe that I live in a society where people have to be embarrassed into changing their minds.
Also, I’m changing my opinion on whether or not Dawkins does convert people...a number of comments have been made in this thread about people having friends whose final conversion to atheist was made after reading ‘The God Delusion’ and similar books. Why not, I guess.
This has been a wonderful thread. It has demonstrated in many ways that many if not most people are not primarily moved by reason or evidence, and are instead moved by the social considerations of their beliefs. Why don’t you want to believe what is manifestly true?
On the rudeness of Dawkins. By the standards of the taboo on criticism of religion, he is rude. That taboo is what keeps the nonsense alive.
By the ordinary standards that other ideas have to live by, he is a perfect gentleman.
I’m sorry if I was unclear in what I mean by ‘don’t want to believe it.’ I do want to believe things that are true...therefore, if it’s true that humans are more moved by social consideration than reason, then I want to believe that. I don’t like it, but pretending it’s not true won’t change that. But if I had a choice between living in that world, or moving to a world where humans were more swayed by reason than social consideration, I would pick the latter. Just like I’d pick a world without human trafficking and sex slaves in it over a world with them.