Sure, it’s quite possible that people have a stable preference for dominant/submissive behavior in social interactions. I think that’s a fairly uncontroversial thing to posit.
The problem with the Blue team is that it ignores the underlying mechanisms
That’s probably because the “Blue” side is not actually a monolithic, self-aware school of thought. “Blue” is an exonym created by Red to describe the amalgam of conventional wisdom and pop-feminism to which they construct themselves as opposing (analogous to how “Cathedral” is not a monolithic, self aware group, but an exonym created by reactionaries). In reality, pop-feminism and conventional wisdom doesn’t often bother delving into evo-psych and thinking about sexual strategy...so the seeming lack of specificity inherent in “click” is not in opposition to anyone, but simply the result of not having adopted a position on the matter.
The problem with the Red team is that it treats individuals as fungible: provide the right signals and it doesn’t matter who your partner is
Well, personally I think the additional, and more pressing problem with Red is that it is factually mistaken in its conclusions about what sorts of signals one should send out and how these thing work.
it seems reasonable to me that for a successful relationship people do need to “click” together (Blue), but whether they do click is determined partly by what they are, what image they present, and what signals they send out (Red)
What you described there is not a spectrum from Blue to Red. Blue to Red would look something like “attraction is about signalling affection and kindness” vs. “attraction is about signalling dominance and demand”.
What you describe is a spectrum from Black to Red, where Black is the absence of ideas about attraction and sexual dynamics—”something” happens and it just clicks—whereas Red/Blue is a specific position on what that “something” is. The difficulty with distinguishing Blue and Black arises because the whole construct described by the term Blue is partly real conventional wisdom and partly a Red straw-man.
And there’s no reason to a priori assume that Red or Blue is actually correct* about what general signals you aught to send out to induce attraction in the average, generalized case, nor is there reason to assume that the truth is anywhere in the middle of these two. There might be a third, Green position which captures the fact of the matter.
In reality, pop-feminism and conventional wisdom doesn’t often bother delving into evo-psych and thinking about sexual strategy
That doesn’t seem to be so. Conventional wisdom has TONS of heuristics about sexual strategy. The real problem is that these heuristics are just a bunch of separate pieces of advice so they tend to contradict each other and in general lack any coherence or structure. In that sense I agree that the Blues have not “adopted a position on the matter”, but instead they propose a large variety of inconsistent positions.
Red is … factually mistaken in its conclusions about what sorts of signals one should send out and how these thing work.
I think it’s pretty obvious that this depends. It seems to me that there is a subset of people for whom the Red approach works well (there is some self-selection here as well) and there is a subset of people for whom it doesn’t. I agree that the Red claims about their “truths” being biologically hardwired and universal to all humans are… excessive :-)
what general signals you aught to send out to induce attraction in the average, generalized case
That’s not a good way to formulate a problem. Any specific individual isn’t much interested in the “average, generalized case”, s/he has more or less specific preferences, and using any techniques selects for people who respond to these techniques.
To give a crude example, flashing a Rolex, keys to a Lamborghini, or talking about your private jet is an excellent signal to “induce attraction” from a very specific kind of females. If you’re interested in this specific kind it’s a good technique. If you’re not, it’s not.
It seems to me that there is a subset of people for whom the Red approach works well...I agree that the Red claims about their “truths” being biologically hardwired and universal to all humans are… excessive
Sure, and there is a subset of people for whom Blue conclusions works well, and for whom Green conclusions work well. Just because the conclusions work for some people in some places, doesn’t mean the premises are actually sound. Following bad premises will eventually lead to suboptimal outcomes.
Accepting false premises based on conclusions that by chance happen to be instrumentally useful in some restricted cases is considered dangerous for very good reason.
I am not particularly interested in debating whether the Red map matches the territory well or not, but note that in your post you make strong claims—that Red techniques succeed only “by chance” and even that temporary success “will eventually lead to suboptimal outcomes”. Beware of the Typical Mind fallacy.
temporary success “will eventually lead to suboptimal outcomes”. Beware of the Typical Mind fallacy.
Just to clarify, by “sub-optimal outcomes” I didn’t mean that you’ll end up unhappy in your romantic relationships (which I agree would be a case of typical mind fallacy). I was referring to sub-optimal outcomes in domains unrelated to sexual strategy.
Also to clarify, the “by chance” refers to the general case of theories which come up with techniques that sometimes work for reasons that may or may not be what the theory says, not to Red/Blue specifically.
To give a crude example, flashing a Rolex, keys to a Lamborghini, or talking about your private jet is an excellent signal to “induce attraction” from a very specific kind of females. If you’re interested in this specific kind it’s a good technique. If you’re not, it’s not.
If you mistakenly model all women as identical to this specific subset and behave accordingly, you’ll create sub-optimal outcomes in a global sense. (For example: What does having this model mean for how you treat women colleagues, coworkers, or students? How you treat daughters?)...note that the Red I’ve experienced does advocate that its model is true in the general case, rather than for a specific subset (they even have a name for it—“AWALT—All Women Are Like That”)
Of course, you could still argue that “optimal outcome” in this domain is specific to who you are...but typical mind fallacy doesn’t matter with respect to terminal preferences and values. I don’t want a society where people are treated that way, especially not from a young age.
But in general, stepping back from this issue specifically...I just think it’s bad epistemic hygiene to judge models by the apparent usefulness of the techniques which they suggest, especially when the fact that the technique is effective was well known before the model was generated.
Why? Doesn’t that mean you’ll end up accepting all manner of placebo and frequently misunderstand the reason that something works?
forecasts
You’re mis-paraphrasing “forecasts”, where I just said “techniques” in general. I think the distinction between pre and post hoc is important here.
If they are actually forecasts (as in, the prediction was made after making the model) then it does lend some credence...but if the model was made post-hoc of seeing certain techniques work and observing certain trends, as is the case with most of what we are talking about, it’s another matter entirely.
Doesn’t that mean you’ll end up accepting all manner of placebo and frequently misunderstand the reason that something works?
The fact that I want to judge models by their effectiveness in the real world does not imply that I have to be stupid about it.
If they are actually forecasts
The Red models make forecasts: they tell you what to do and what results to expect, all in the future.
but if the model was made post-hoc of seeing certain techniques work and observing certain trends
That’s usually called historical data on which the model is based (or fitted) :-)
But is it your contention that Red techniques (regardless of whether the underlying Red models are correct or not) actually work? You seem to have been saying that they don’t.
We all try to be stupid about it, but all sorts of biases will begin coming into play with nebulous criteria like that.
A model based on historical data becomes more trustworthy once it makes a prediction in a novel scenario. If the Phlogiston model tells you to predict that fire goes out when airflow is restricted, it doesn’t increase the model’s impressiveness because Becher knew that fact before he made the model.
You seem to have been saying that they don’t
Yes, I was sort of saying that earlier when I was talking about generalities. But I am also in agreement with your previous statement, that they work for a subset of people who have certain goals.
We all try to be [I assume there is a missing “not” here] stupid about it, but all sorts of biases will begin coming into play.
That looks like a general argument against any kind of empirical testing.
once it makes a prediction in a novel scenario.
You join the Red team, go out to a bar, meet a girl you’ve never seen before. That is a novel scenario—the alternative is to accept that the Red techniques work because of biological imperatives hardwired into all human females, something I think you’d be loath to do.
And not to accuse you of rationalist sins, but do you think there is some motivated cognition going on?
You join the Red team, go out to a bar, meet a girl you’ve never seen before. That is a novel scenario—the alternative is to accept that the Red techniques work because of biological imperatives hardwired into all human females, something I think you’d be loath to do.
Red Theory: Go to the bar wearing a suit and rolex because it signals wealth and status, find a girl and take her home. Make an advance. She’ll act reluctant at first, but she’s just testing your dominance so you should make another attempt later on. She’ll rationalize it later in the morning—you have to provide plausible deniability, so she can pretend that “it just happened” and enjoy herself without feeling like a slut. She’ll be attracted to your willingness to assert your desire.
Blue Theory: The display of wealth did catch her eye—she was raised in a traditional manner and wanted to settle down with someone who could provide, and she’d always had a thing for suits. However, once she got back to your place, the woman really didn’t want to, but she felt awkward, was alone with a strange man, and was too tipsy to make good decisions. She just wanted to get the situation over with and go home. She regretted playing along with it and not giving a more clear denial the next morning. Her self esteem lowered as a result of the encounter.
The above scenario plays out repeatedly in clubs and bars everywhere. Same sequence of events, and same predictions about what will happen...but very different underlying models of what is happening. Why should Red get to be the privileged hypothesis about what’s really going on here? Especially when Blue seems more in line with what people say they have experienced in such situations?
(Also, “a technique produces the results it has produced in the past” is not the same as “empirical testing of a hypothesis”)
once she got back to your place, the woman really didn’t want to
What exactly did she go “back to your place” for? What were her expectations at the moment she said “OK, let’s go to your place”?
same predictions about what will happen
Really? That just casts women as helpless powerless victims. Sure you want to go in that direction?
Why should Red get to be the privileged hypothesis about what’s really going on here?
So, what’s the Blue hypothesis? Why did the woman go back to his place? Why did she consent? Which falsifiable (in the Popperian sense) assertion about what really happened can Blue make?
Blue seems more in line with what people say they have experienced in such situations?
Really? That just casts women as helpless powerless victims. Sure you want to go in that direction?
Sort of, yes. I think a large segment of humanity (women and men) are hopelessly unable to assert their own preferences, and if an assertive person tells them to do something, they just sort of...go along with it. This is even more apparent when alcohol is added to the mix. You don’t even need to go so far as the Milgram experiment—humans are shockingly (pun intended) compliant to much weaker forms of authority. The aversion to conflict can override a lot of other preferences. It’s kind of disappointing, but that’s just how humans are.
And that’s before you add in complications relating to impulse control and people’s short term vs. long term preferences.
However, it’s not really victimhood I’m describing here—what I described isn’t quite at the point where I’d call it a crime scene. I’d say it’s primarily a mis-communication of preferences between two parties, fueled by hyper-assertiveness on one end and conflict-aversion on the other.This is the reason that feminists advocate much stronger forms of communication and consent.
selection bias
Yes, but it would be foolhardy to ignore available evidence in favor of some hypothetical speculation about what the evidence that slips my notice might be. In any case, this seems like the sort of scenario where I’d advocate everyone err on the side of caution by making sure to get verbal consent in the absence of strong, insistent application of social pressure, and most importantly to take reluctance at face value.
I think a large segment of humanity (women and men) are hopelessly unable to assert their own preferences, and if an assertive person tells them to do something, they just sort of...go along with it.
Well, that’s interesting. To hell with who gets to screw whom—what do you think about social and political implications of this? This approach basically says that democracy cannot be anything but a sham, for example. It also heavily implies that people need a benevolent philosopher-king to rule over them.
If a “large segment” of people have, basically, reduced capabilities, what does that imply about their rights?
it’s not really victimhood I’m describing here—what I described isn’t quite at the point where I’d call it a crime scene
Oh, come on, the common use of the word “victim” nowadays (especially in the SJ circles) has nothing to do with crimes and legality in general.
what do you think about social and political implications of this?
Pretty bleak. See: Third Reich. But I don’t see how knowing that humans are vulnerable to do things they don’t like when authority tells them to means we should have more central authorities—there’s some inferences you’ve made that are opaque to me. If anything, I would think it means we should be all the more suspicious of authority and vigilantly maintain egalitarianism. (Of course, if you’re somehow guaranteeing that they be benevolent and competent philosophers to boot, that does seem pretty good...)
Oh, come one
I don’t think there is any need to adopt any other group’s broadened usage of “victim” here?
it means we should be all the more suspicious of authority
Your premise is that a “large segment” of people is basically incapable of this, and even if it gets suspicious can be just intimidated and shouted down into submission.
I don’t mean this as confrontational way, just an observation: there’s this pattern of where I write something, and then you respond as if I wrote a subtly exaggerated version containing some additional points which I didn’t actually write. This comment really typifies the tendency.
Just because I think many humans have a weakness for obeying authority and avoiding conflict (do you actually dispute that?) doesn’t mean I think society is going to collapse as a result of this tendency
Just because a lot of drunk people at a night club are often pressured into making quick decisions they regret later doesn’t mean that no one is capable of questioning authority and standing up for themselves.
Maintaining egalitarianism means preventing people from systematically exerting power over one another in a way that significantly overrides each others preferences, and that’s not a non sequitur.
there’s this pattern of where I write something, and then you repeat back a subtly exaggerated version
Yes, I find it an efficient way to gain understanding of other people’s positions. Basically, if you make a point, I don’t know—and I lack a proper word for that—how far are you willing to take it. So I sharpen that point and repeat it back to you. There are several possible outcomes. One is that I misunderstood you and what I repeated back to you isn’t what you meant. Another one is that yes, you are fine with the “sharpened” point. Yet another one is that the sharpened point goes too far so you want to define a boundary beyond which your point doesn’t apply. In any case I understand your point much better.
doesn’t mean I think society is going to collapse as a result of this tendency
I don’t have in mind a collapse. I have in mind a totalitarian state.
systematically exerting power over one another in a way that significantly overrides each others preferences
As far as I can tell, the main function of democracy is to prevent the power structure from dramatically violating the citizen’s preferences. Totalitarian rule doesn’t have that feature, creating a higher risk of it becoming an unpleasant to live in, as well as unstable.
Isn’t that, essentially, what government is?
Yup.
There’s a balance to be struck between facilitating centralized organization and decision making, which involves a top down structure, and preventing top-down coercion.
I think we’re reaching realms of political science which are outside the domain of things which I know about / have thought about enough about to speak confidently.
Did the sides in this debate suddenly switch in these last two comments? I thought you were both making really good points above, and then got lost here at the end. :P Oh well, I gave y’all some upvotes.
My last comment was referring to things in general, rather than the Red/Blue issue
L had pointed out that there is a subset of people for whom Red works well
I said that Red, Blue, etc… referred to models of reality, and the accuracy models should be judged by the evidence supporting those models, rather than the apparent usefulness of the associated techniques. (Example: If someone said aspirin cured headaches by chasing away evil spirits, we shouldn’t take the fact that aspirin cures headaches in a subset of cases as evidence that there are evil spirits being chased away.) I further said that making this mistake would lead to sub-optimal outcomes.
L pointed out that what is sub-optimal for me is not necessarily sub-optimal for others.
I also agree with L’s assertion that neither of us is defending a fixed position, though I don’t think that was the reason for your confusion?
Sure, it’s quite possible that people have a stable preference for dominant/submissive behavior in social interactions. I think that’s a fairly uncontroversial thing to posit.
That’s probably because the “Blue” side is not actually a monolithic, self-aware school of thought. “Blue” is an exonym created by Red to describe the amalgam of conventional wisdom and pop-feminism to which they construct themselves as opposing (analogous to how “Cathedral” is not a monolithic, self aware group, but an exonym created by reactionaries). In reality, pop-feminism and conventional wisdom doesn’t often bother delving into evo-psych and thinking about sexual strategy...so the seeming lack of specificity inherent in “click” is not in opposition to anyone, but simply the result of not having adopted a position on the matter.
Well, personally I think the additional, and more pressing problem with Red is that it is factually mistaken in its conclusions about what sorts of signals one should send out and how these thing work.
What you described there is not a spectrum from Blue to Red. Blue to Red would look something like “attraction is about signalling affection and kindness” vs. “attraction is about signalling dominance and demand”.
What you describe is a spectrum from Black to Red, where Black is the absence of ideas about attraction and sexual dynamics—”something” happens and it just clicks—whereas Red/Blue is a specific position on what that “something” is. The difficulty with distinguishing Blue and Black arises because the whole construct described by the term Blue is partly real conventional wisdom and partly a Red straw-man.
And there’s no reason to a priori assume that Red or Blue is actually correct* about what general signals you aught to send out to induce attraction in the average, generalized case, nor is there reason to assume that the truth is anywhere in the middle of these two. There might be a third, Green position which captures the fact of the matter.
That doesn’t seem to be so. Conventional wisdom has TONS of heuristics about sexual strategy. The real problem is that these heuristics are just a bunch of separate pieces of advice so they tend to contradict each other and in general lack any coherence or structure. In that sense I agree that the Blues have not “adopted a position on the matter”, but instead they propose a large variety of inconsistent positions.
I think it’s pretty obvious that this depends. It seems to me that there is a subset of people for whom the Red approach works well (there is some self-selection here as well) and there is a subset of people for whom it doesn’t. I agree that the Red claims about their “truths” being biologically hardwired and universal to all humans are… excessive :-)
That’s not a good way to formulate a problem. Any specific individual isn’t much interested in the “average, generalized case”, s/he has more or less specific preferences, and using any techniques selects for people who respond to these techniques.
To give a crude example, flashing a Rolex, keys to a Lamborghini, or talking about your private jet is an excellent signal to “induce attraction” from a very specific kind of females. If you’re interested in this specific kind it’s a good technique. If you’re not, it’s not.
Sure, and there is a subset of people for whom Blue conclusions works well, and for whom Green conclusions work well. Just because the conclusions work for some people in some places, doesn’t mean the premises are actually sound. Following bad premises will eventually lead to suboptimal outcomes.
Accepting false premises based on conclusions that by chance happen to be instrumentally useful in some restricted cases is considered dangerous for very good reason.
I am not particularly interested in debating whether the Red map matches the territory well or not, but note that in your post you make strong claims—that Red techniques succeed only “by chance” and even that temporary success “will eventually lead to suboptimal outcomes”. Beware of the Typical Mind fallacy.
Just to clarify, by “sub-optimal outcomes” I didn’t mean that you’ll end up unhappy in your romantic relationships (which I agree would be a case of typical mind fallacy). I was referring to sub-optimal outcomes in domains unrelated to sexual strategy.
Also to clarify, the “by chance” refers to the general case of theories which come up with techniques that sometimes work for reasons that may or may not be what the theory says, not to Red/Blue specifically.
If you mistakenly model all women as identical to this specific subset and behave accordingly, you’ll create sub-optimal outcomes in a global sense. (For example: What does having this model mean for how you treat women colleagues, coworkers, or students? How you treat daughters?)...note that the Red I’ve experienced does advocate that its model is true in the general case, rather than for a specific subset (they even have a name for it—“AWALT—All Women Are Like That”)
Of course, you could still argue that “optimal outcome” in this domain is specific to who you are...but typical mind fallacy doesn’t matter with respect to terminal preferences and values. I don’t want a society where people are treated that way, especially not from a young age.
But in general, stepping back from this issue specifically...I just think it’s bad epistemic hygiene to judge models by the apparent usefulness of the techniques which they suggest, especially when the fact that the technique is effective was well known before the model was generated.
I disagree. I think that judging models by the success of their forecasts in empirical reality is precisely how they should be evaluated.
Why? Doesn’t that mean you’ll end up accepting all manner of placebo and frequently misunderstand the reason that something works?
You’re mis-paraphrasing “forecasts”, where I just said “techniques” in general. I think the distinction between pre and post hoc is important here.
If they are actually forecasts (as in, the prediction was made after making the model) then it does lend some credence...but if the model was made post-hoc of seeing certain techniques work and observing certain trends, as is the case with most of what we are talking about, it’s another matter entirely.
The fact that I want to judge models by their effectiveness in the real world does not imply that I have to be stupid about it.
The Red models make forecasts: they tell you what to do and what results to expect, all in the future.
That’s usually called historical data on which the model is based (or fitted) :-)
But is it your contention that Red techniques (regardless of whether the underlying Red models are correct or not) actually work? You seem to have been saying that they don’t.
We all try to be stupid about it, but all sorts of biases will begin coming into play with nebulous criteria like that.
A model based on historical data becomes more trustworthy once it makes a prediction in a novel scenario. If the Phlogiston model tells you to predict that fire goes out when airflow is restricted, it doesn’t increase the model’s impressiveness because Becher knew that fact before he made the model.
Yes, I was sort of saying that earlier when I was talking about generalities. But I am also in agreement with your previous statement, that they work for a subset of people who have certain goals.
That looks like a general argument against any kind of empirical testing.
You join the Red team, go out to a bar, meet a girl you’ve never seen before. That is a novel scenario—the alternative is to accept that the Red techniques work because of biological imperatives hardwired into all human females, something I think you’d be loath to do.
And not to accuse you of rationalist sins, but do you think there is some motivated cognition going on?
Red Theory: Go to the bar wearing a suit and rolex because it signals wealth and status, find a girl and take her home. Make an advance. She’ll act reluctant at first, but she’s just testing your dominance so you should make another attempt later on. She’ll rationalize it later in the morning—you have to provide plausible deniability, so she can pretend that “it just happened” and enjoy herself without feeling like a slut. She’ll be attracted to your willingness to assert your desire.
Blue Theory: The display of wealth did catch her eye—she was raised in a traditional manner and wanted to settle down with someone who could provide, and she’d always had a thing for suits. However, once she got back to your place, the woman really didn’t want to, but she felt awkward, was alone with a strange man, and was too tipsy to make good decisions. She just wanted to get the situation over with and go home. She regretted playing along with it and not giving a more clear denial the next morning. Her self esteem lowered as a result of the encounter.
The above scenario plays out repeatedly in clubs and bars everywhere. Same sequence of events, and same predictions about what will happen...but very different underlying models of what is happening. Why should Red get to be the privileged hypothesis about what’s really going on here? Especially when Blue seems more in line with what people say they have experienced in such situations?
(Also, “a technique produces the results it has produced in the past” is not the same as “empirical testing of a hypothesis”)
What exactly did she go “back to your place” for? What were her expectations at the moment she said “OK, let’s go to your place”?
Really? That just casts women as helpless powerless victims. Sure you want to go in that direction?
So, what’s the Blue hypothesis? Why did the woman go back to his place? Why did she consent? Which falsifiable (in the Popperian sense) assertion about what really happened can Blue make?
You know about selection bias, right?
Sort of, yes. I think a large segment of humanity (women and men) are hopelessly unable to assert their own preferences, and if an assertive person tells them to do something, they just sort of...go along with it. This is even more apparent when alcohol is added to the mix. You don’t even need to go so far as the Milgram experiment—humans are shockingly (pun intended) compliant to much weaker forms of authority. The aversion to conflict can override a lot of other preferences. It’s kind of disappointing, but that’s just how humans are.
And that’s before you add in complications relating to impulse control and people’s short term vs. long term preferences.
However, it’s not really victimhood I’m describing here—what I described isn’t quite at the point where I’d call it a crime scene. I’d say it’s primarily a mis-communication of preferences between two parties, fueled by hyper-assertiveness on one end and conflict-aversion on the other.This is the reason that feminists advocate much stronger forms of communication and consent.
Yes, but it would be foolhardy to ignore available evidence in favor of some hypothetical speculation about what the evidence that slips my notice might be. In any case, this seems like the sort of scenario where I’d advocate everyone err on the side of caution by making sure to get verbal consent in the absence of strong, insistent application of social pressure, and most importantly to take reluctance at face value.
Well, that’s interesting. To hell with who gets to screw whom—what do you think about social and political implications of this? This approach basically says that democracy cannot be anything but a sham, for example. It also heavily implies that people need a benevolent philosopher-king to rule over them.
If a “large segment” of people have, basically, reduced capabilities, what does that imply about their rights?
Oh, come on, the common use of the word “victim” nowadays (especially in the SJ circles) has nothing to do with crimes and legality in general.
Pretty bleak. See: Third Reich. But I don’t see how knowing that humans are vulnerable to do things they don’t like when authority tells them to means we should have more central authorities—there’s some inferences you’ve made that are opaque to me. If anything, I would think it means we should be all the more suspicious of authority and vigilantly maintain egalitarianism. (Of course, if you’re somehow guaranteeing that they be benevolent and competent philosophers to boot, that does seem pretty good...)
I don’t think there is any need to adopt any other group’s broadened usage of “victim” here?
Well, should we stock on ammo and beans, then?
Your premise is that a “large segment” of people is basically incapable of this, and even if it gets suspicious can be just intimidated and shouted down into submission.
That’s a non sequitur.
I don’t mean this as confrontational way, just an observation: there’s this pattern of where I write something, and then you respond as if I wrote a subtly exaggerated version containing some additional points which I didn’t actually write. This comment really typifies the tendency.
Just because I think many humans have a weakness for obeying authority and avoiding conflict (do you actually dispute that?) doesn’t mean I think society is going to collapse as a result of this tendency
Just because a lot of drunk people at a night club are often pressured into making quick decisions they regret later doesn’t mean that no one is capable of questioning authority and standing up for themselves.
Maintaining egalitarianism means preventing people from systematically exerting power over one another in a way that significantly overrides each others preferences, and that’s not a non sequitur.
Yes, I find it an efficient way to gain understanding of other people’s positions. Basically, if you make a point, I don’t know—and I lack a proper word for that—how far are you willing to take it. So I sharpen that point and repeat it back to you. There are several possible outcomes. One is that I misunderstood you and what I repeated back to you isn’t what you meant. Another one is that yes, you are fine with the “sharpened” point. Yet another one is that the sharpened point goes too far so you want to define a boundary beyond which your point doesn’t apply. In any case I understand your point much better.
I don’t have in mind a collapse. I have in mind a totalitarian state.
Isn’t that, essentially, what government is?
As far as I can tell, the main function of democracy is to prevent the power structure from dramatically violating the citizen’s preferences. Totalitarian rule doesn’t have that feature, creating a higher risk of it becoming an unpleasant to live in, as well as unstable.
Yup.
There’s a balance to be struck between facilitating centralized organization and decision making, which involves a top down structure, and preventing top-down coercion.
I think we’re reaching realms of political science which are outside the domain of things which I know about / have thought about enough about to speak confidently.
It was a nice arc from PUA techniques to viability of sociopolitical structures :-)
Did the sides in this debate suddenly switch in these last two comments? I thought you were both making really good points above, and then got lost here at the end. :P Oh well, I gave y’all some upvotes.
My last comment was referring to things in general, rather than the Red/Blue issue
L had pointed out that there is a subset of people for whom Red works well
I said that Red, Blue, etc… referred to models of reality, and the accuracy models should be judged by the evidence supporting those models, rather than the apparent usefulness of the associated techniques. (Example: If someone said aspirin cured headaches by chasing away evil spirits, we shouldn’t take the fact that aspirin cures headaches in a subset of cases as evidence that there are evil spirits being chased away.) I further said that making this mistake would lead to sub-optimal outcomes.
L pointed out that what is sub-optimal for me is not necessarily sub-optimal for others.
I also agree with L’s assertion that neither of us is defending a fixed position, though I don’t think that was the reason for your confusion?
Maybe? :-) I think we were discussing the issue, not defending fixed positions.
Fair point :)