Can’t promise the “level of care, thought, and rigor on display here and in guzey’s original post” in a single comment. Seems like asking a lot. But, to answer some of your questions:
In mania you are not playing with it, it is playing with you, and you have little control of what is going on. It is also known to be unhealthy in various ways.
By “playing with sleep” I mean not going with the flow by staying up or staying awake, but methodical deliberate attempts to change one’s sleeping patterns.
“Bound to backfire”: it is well established that chronic sleep deprivation leads to various side effects that are discussed in the OP (and also argued against by Alexey). One pitfall is that it is not just the side effects, but the inability to tell that something goes wrong as a result of sleep deprivation, thus destroying an essential feedback mechanism.
“Best done professionally” means exactly that, “professional sleep researchers”. Someone who is qualified and is not sleep deprived while doing the research on willing subjects, or on those who are stuck with unusual or poor sleep. “we should simply get the FDA-recommended amount of sleep and not ask why” seems silly enough that I have trouble believing you actually considered that as something I might have suggested.
Not sure if this is up to your standards, but I guess I tried.
By “playing with sleep” I mean not going with the flow by staying up or staying awake, but methodical deliberate attempts to change one’s sleeping patterns.
It surprises me that you’d find relatively impulsive and ill-considered modifications of one’s sleep routine to be preferable to a carefully thought-through approach. Can you say a little more as to why you hold this opinion?
“Bound to backfire”: it is well established that chronic sleep deprivation leads to various side effects that are discussed in the OP (and also argued against by Alexey). One pitfall is that it is not just the side effects, but the inability to tell that something goes wrong as a result of sleep deprivation, thus destroying an essential feedback mechanism.
I think we all pretty much agree here that sleep deprivation comes with downsides. It’s really the magnitude of those downsides, potential for upsides, the impact of those downsides on things like health and functional performance that are in question, and how the downsides weigh against the benefits of ~12% additional waking hours that’s in question. While it’s fine to point out that downsides exist, your tone seems to imply that you believe that the existence of downsides settles the matter, while it seems to me that the whole point of broaching the discussion in the first place is that Guzey and I (and others) think it’s worth discussing.
“Best done professionally” means exactly that, “professional sleep researchers”. Someone who is qualified and is not sleep deprived while doing the research on willing subjects, or on those who are stuck with unusual or poor sleep. “we should simply get the FDA-recommended amount of sleep and not ask why” seems silly enough that I have trouble believing you actually considered that as something I might have suggested.
I don’t think it’s silly to have interpreted you that way. After all, nobody here has suggested actually running any sort of formal sleep study. What we’re all clearly doing is discussing the published results, along with anecdata and our own ideas. You might have been referring to our own personal choices about how much sleep to get as a form of “sleep research,” but given the fact that people vary and try to optimize and improve their sleep all the time, saying that people should not do this sort of “sleep research” would seem silliest of all to me, so I assumed that was not what you meant. Perhaps you could be more specific about what activity you’re recommending people avoid when you say to “leave the sleep research to the professionals?”
From a bunch of downvotes I assume that people don’t want to see the types of comments I have made about tinkering with sleep being unwise, I think I said enough, anyway.
Up to you! I’ve been upvoting you, though. My main concern in this thread is that I don’t want to see an opportunity for constructive debate stifled by people’s feelings getting hurt, or by frustrating levels of imprecision. So I find it annoying that people are downvoting you when you’re making an effort to provide an alternative perspective. If you’d like to PM with other thoughts, please do.
Can’t promise the “level of care, thought, and rigor on display here and in guzey’s original post” in a single comment. Seems like asking a lot. But, to answer some of your questions:
In mania you are not playing with it, it is playing with you, and you have little control of what is going on. It is also known to be unhealthy in various ways.
By “playing with sleep” I mean not going with the flow by staying up or staying awake, but methodical deliberate attempts to change one’s sleeping patterns.
“Bound to backfire”: it is well established that chronic sleep deprivation leads to various side effects that are discussed in the OP (and also argued against by Alexey). One pitfall is that it is not just the side effects, but the inability to tell that something goes wrong as a result of sleep deprivation, thus destroying an essential feedback mechanism.
“Best done professionally” means exactly that, “professional sleep researchers”. Someone who is qualified and is not sleep deprived while doing the research on willing subjects, or on those who are stuck with unusual or poor sleep. “we should simply get the FDA-recommended amount of sleep and not ask why” seems silly enough that I have trouble believing you actually considered that as something I might have suggested.
Not sure if this is up to your standards, but I guess I tried.
This definitely helps, so thank you.
By “playing with sleep” I mean not going with the flow by staying up or staying awake, but methodical deliberate attempts to change one’s sleeping patterns.
It surprises me that you’d find relatively impulsive and ill-considered modifications of one’s sleep routine to be preferable to a carefully thought-through approach. Can you say a little more as to why you hold this opinion?
“Bound to backfire”: it is well established that chronic sleep deprivation leads to various side effects that are discussed in the OP (and also argued against by Alexey). One pitfall is that it is not just the side effects, but the inability to tell that something goes wrong as a result of sleep deprivation, thus destroying an essential feedback mechanism.
I think we all pretty much agree here that sleep deprivation comes with downsides. It’s really the magnitude of those downsides, potential for upsides, the impact of those downsides on things like health and functional performance that are in question, and how the downsides weigh against the benefits of ~12% additional waking hours that’s in question. While it’s fine to point out that downsides exist, your tone seems to imply that you believe that the existence of downsides settles the matter, while it seems to me that the whole point of broaching the discussion in the first place is that Guzey and I (and others) think it’s worth discussing.
“Best done professionally” means exactly that, “professional sleep researchers”. Someone who is qualified and is not sleep deprived while doing the research on willing subjects, or on those who are stuck with unusual or poor sleep. “we should simply get the FDA-recommended amount of sleep and not ask why” seems silly enough that I have trouble believing you actually considered that as something I might have suggested.
I don’t think it’s silly to have interpreted you that way. After all, nobody here has suggested actually running any sort of formal sleep study. What we’re all clearly doing is discussing the published results, along with anecdata and our own ideas. You might have been referring to our own personal choices about how much sleep to get as a form of “sleep research,” but given the fact that people vary and try to optimize and improve their sleep all the time, saying that people should not do this sort of “sleep research” would seem silliest of all to me, so I assumed that was not what you meant. Perhaps you could be more specific about what activity you’re recommending people avoid when you say to “leave the sleep research to the professionals?”
From a bunch of downvotes I assume that people don’t want to see the types of comments I have made about tinkering with sleep being unwise, I think I said enough, anyway.
Up to you! I’ve been upvoting you, though. My main concern in this thread is that I don’t want to see an opportunity for constructive debate stifled by people’s feelings getting hurt, or by frustrating levels of imprecision. So I find it annoying that people are downvoting you when you’re making an effort to provide an alternative perspective. If you’d like to PM with other thoughts, please do.