I’d say you’ve got two out of three there. Based on lines Chrysalis says (When she beats Celestia, she says “Ah! Shining Armor’s love for you is even stronger than I thought! Consuming it has made me even more powerful than Celestia!”), her power doesn’t depend on the magical strength of the pony she’s feeding off, it’s all about love, and alicorns don’t necessarily love any more intensely than other ponies. The changelings would have been more powerful taking on alicorn forms, but it’s clear that that isn’t enough to win in one-on-one combat: The Mane 6 took out dozens on their own, and they weren’t even warriors. Twilight was the only pony who actually had the ability to do a lot of damage in a fight, and arguably Pinkie. Shining loved Cadence much more than most ponies love other ponies, which gave Chrysalis the power to beat Celestia. When the two fought, Celestia was actually the one to attack first, and it was a fairly straight contest of strength which Celestia lost. You’re right about the uncounterable nature of the love spell that defeated the changeling invasion though.
As for Discord and Sombra, you have good points. Especially with Discord. It seems fairly obvious that Discord is stronger than Celestia, as Celestia is powerless to stop him in Season 2, but at the same time, when Celestia cast a spell on the Elements, Discord didn’t even TRY to do anything to overcome the protections of the one thing in Equestria that could stop him. As you said, that’s a pretty clear indication that he knew it would be a waste of his time to try.
I’m assuming Sombra had some sort of power source: My best guess is that he fed off the negative emotions of his subjects, which caused a feedback loop where he became more evil and more powerful and caused more misery which looped until he was strong enough to fight the alicorns and win without the Elements of Harmony backing them up. Said power source would in fact be FAR more dangerous in the hands of an alicorn, even the version of an alicorn I intend to use in my story, where alicorn-ness is basically a force multiplier for magic, rather than an instant pass to godhood.
As for the precognition: If Celestia could see the future, the fic would turn out extremely differently. In fact, the entire fic would probably only last one or two chapters. As soon as Twilight finds out Celestia can see the future, her likely response would be to use that. She could make up her mind to do X, where X is a series of factors that could influence how the alicornified society would develop. If none of them work out positively, game over. As you said, you can’t really argue with someone who sees the future with tremendous reliability. If one of them does turn out favourable, Celestia has no leg to stand on, and logically would have to give in. In fact, if it turns out that, for the fic to make logical sense, Celestia must have sufficient precognition to make this a possibility, I simply won’t write it.
There are other potential reasons behind the first episode turning out as it did. Chief among them is that Twilight and the others THOUGHT they had to save Equestria, but in reality, Celestia was waiting to intervene. She wanted Twilight and the others to succeed, because the Elements would be stronger and have a better chance of working if they did, but if they were clearly outmatched, Celestia would have stepped in herself. (Even this is a risk, but I don’t find it too difficult to believe Celestia would take some level of risk to get her sister back to her pre-NMM state.)
So, to summarise my stance:
Binary magic: Agree.
Celestia is comparable to FAI: DIsagree.
As for the precognition: If Celestia could see the future, the fic would turn out extremely differently.
She could have a variant of the Pinkie sense—uncontrolled limited precognition. Or it could be that there are feedbacks such that in order for it to work she needs to avoid all involvement in the proceedings (which is why she works through agents so much) - and introducing an endemic threat would require her to basically recuse herself from her own civilization, which seems a bit much.
(There’s actually a comic regarding Chrysalis’ return. I haven’t read it, but from what I understand Chrysalis specifically targets Twilight to feed on her magic because she recognizes her as unusually powerful. Judging by how much magic in the MLP universe is modified by emotions, my guess is that it’s an additive or multiplicative factor for changlings when they feed. (As an aside, I’d totally choose Rainbow Dash in a fight. She punches houses into rainbow explosions.))
I’d assume that any future sight is extraordinarily limited, magically costly, and marginally useful. I’d guess Celestia uses it is the first episode, maybe uses it in Dragonshy, then notably doesn’t use it for 1st Discord or Chrysalis, then uses it again for the Crystal Empire and 2nd Discord.
In both episodes we see causality-breaking effects (Pinkie Keen and It’s About Time), it results in closed loop time travel. I haven’t invested too much thought into it, but can closed loop time travel be exploited via traveling to the future? It seems a very risky proposition, since we’ve already determined that time-travel can and will force paradoxes. You may only get one shot at seeing a future (and you can’t avoid the consequences), rather than being able to pick-and-choose possible futures. In this case, the more vague the future is, the better.
As an aside...I just remembered Twilight can already time travel. Yeah… that would make for some confusing debates.
I’ll have to check out that comic if the Chrysalis argument comes up, I suppose.
I’m not sure what you mean by trying to exploit closed-loop time travel through travelling to the future. Do you mean using future sight to see a desirable future and then trying to get there?
As for time travel, in this particular fic, my best answer is simply “Hell no.” If it comes up, Twilight and the alicorns can simply decide it’s a Really Bad Idea to use it, and they’re right, since nobody actually understands how the hell it works, because it violates causality in that fashion. Alternatively, I borrow an answer I saw in a fanfiction once: It can only be used once in a pony’s lifetime. And, obviously, the alicorns being immortal and all wouldn’t use up one of their precious uses of the spell for anything short of “The situation is hopeless, and Equestria is now 100% doomed.” (That is to say, I assume Celestia would have used it IF her attempt to jog Twilight’s memory against Discord had failed.) The second I saw that time travel episode, I was like “Oh crap.” because I knew that it would add a new layer of complexity to any realistic fanfiction I tried to write, in the sense that I would have to come up with some way to write it off. I am not smart enough to deal with time travel. I am nowhere near smart enough. As HPMOR points out, even stable time loops are ridiculously complicated and drive people stark raving mad with regularity.
My favorite explanation: since causality tries to avoid paradoxes, most time-travellers get squished by large rocks or natural disasters before they can act, because they would have tried to change things. Even if they were going to try and avoid changing the past, they would have inevitably made mistakes, so the only consistent result is either ignorance and co-incidence or dyeing almost immediately. Or the time spell failing due to unforseen problems, if you’re feeling generous.
As far as I understand it, causality is just the relationship between cause and effect. If I’m right, saying it tries to avoid paradoxes is like saying gravity acts whenever someone falls off a cliff to prevent them from flying.
If I really needed to explain away time travel in this fic, I’d probably have a future Twilight show up and say “Whatever you do, do NOT use time travel. I don’t care how bad it is. Even if Equestria is going to be destroyed if you don’t. DO. NOT. MESS. WITH. TIME.”
Fortunately, I don’t see any situation in this fic where Twilight would even want to use time travel. Arguments aren’t one-time only things, you can always come back with another counterpoint later against a rational opponent who’s arguing for the sake of finding out who’s right, rather than to win social status or something. And any losses of social status that may occur in the fic are nowhere near worthy of time-travel to fix them, it’d be like cleaning a house by burning it to the ground and building a new one.
As far as I understand it, causality is just the relationship between cause and effect. If I’m right, saying it tries to avoid paradoxes is like saying gravity acts whenever someone falls off a cliff to prevent them from flying.
That was a somewhat anthropomorphic allusion to the Novikov self-consistency principle. But yes, it is.
Fortunately, I don’t see any situation in this fic where Twilight would even want to use time travel.
Fair enough.
EDIT:
If I really needed to explain away time travel in this fic, I’d probably have a future Twilight show up and say “Whatever you do, do NOT use time travel. I don’t care how bad it is. Even if Equestria is going to be destroyed if you don’t. DO. NOT. MESS. WITH. TIME.”
You realize the canonical example of time travel was a stable loop, right? As was that pinkie-sense business.
I’d say you’ve got two out of three there. Based on lines Chrysalis says (When she beats Celestia, she says “Ah! Shining Armor’s love for you is even stronger than I thought! Consuming it has made me even more powerful than Celestia!”), her power doesn’t depend on the magical strength of the pony she’s feeding off, it’s all about love, and alicorns don’t necessarily love any more intensely than other ponies. The changelings would have been more powerful taking on alicorn forms, but it’s clear that that isn’t enough to win in one-on-one combat: The Mane 6 took out dozens on their own, and they weren’t even warriors. Twilight was the only pony who actually had the ability to do a lot of damage in a fight, and arguably Pinkie. Shining loved Cadence much more than most ponies love other ponies, which gave Chrysalis the power to beat Celestia. When the two fought, Celestia was actually the one to attack first, and it was a fairly straight contest of strength which Celestia lost. You’re right about the uncounterable nature of the love spell that defeated the changeling invasion though.
As for Discord and Sombra, you have good points. Especially with Discord. It seems fairly obvious that Discord is stronger than Celestia, as Celestia is powerless to stop him in Season 2, but at the same time, when Celestia cast a spell on the Elements, Discord didn’t even TRY to do anything to overcome the protections of the one thing in Equestria that could stop him. As you said, that’s a pretty clear indication that he knew it would be a waste of his time to try.
I’m assuming Sombra had some sort of power source: My best guess is that he fed off the negative emotions of his subjects, which caused a feedback loop where he became more evil and more powerful and caused more misery which looped until he was strong enough to fight the alicorns and win without the Elements of Harmony backing them up. Said power source would in fact be FAR more dangerous in the hands of an alicorn, even the version of an alicorn I intend to use in my story, where alicorn-ness is basically a force multiplier for magic, rather than an instant pass to godhood.
As for the precognition: If Celestia could see the future, the fic would turn out extremely differently. In fact, the entire fic would probably only last one or two chapters. As soon as Twilight finds out Celestia can see the future, her likely response would be to use that. She could make up her mind to do X, where X is a series of factors that could influence how the alicornified society would develop. If none of them work out positively, game over. As you said, you can’t really argue with someone who sees the future with tremendous reliability. If one of them does turn out favourable, Celestia has no leg to stand on, and logically would have to give in. In fact, if it turns out that, for the fic to make logical sense, Celestia must have sufficient precognition to make this a possibility, I simply won’t write it.
There are other potential reasons behind the first episode turning out as it did. Chief among them is that Twilight and the others THOUGHT they had to save Equestria, but in reality, Celestia was waiting to intervene. She wanted Twilight and the others to succeed, because the Elements would be stronger and have a better chance of working if they did, but if they were clearly outmatched, Celestia would have stepped in herself. (Even this is a risk, but I don’t find it too difficult to believe Celestia would take some level of risk to get her sister back to her pre-NMM state.)
So, to summarise my stance:
Binary magic: Agree. Celestia is comparable to FAI: DIsagree.
She could have a variant of the Pinkie sense—uncontrolled limited precognition. Or it could be that there are feedbacks such that in order for it to work she needs to avoid all involvement in the proceedings (which is why she works through agents so much) - and introducing an endemic threat would require her to basically recuse herself from her own civilization, which seems a bit much.
(There’s actually a comic regarding Chrysalis’ return. I haven’t read it, but from what I understand Chrysalis specifically targets Twilight to feed on her magic because she recognizes her as unusually powerful. Judging by how much magic in the MLP universe is modified by emotions, my guess is that it’s an additive or multiplicative factor for changlings when they feed. (As an aside, I’d totally choose Rainbow Dash in a fight. She punches houses into rainbow explosions.))
I’d assume that any future sight is extraordinarily limited, magically costly, and marginally useful. I’d guess Celestia uses it is the first episode, maybe uses it in Dragonshy, then notably doesn’t use it for 1st Discord or Chrysalis, then uses it again for the Crystal Empire and 2nd Discord.
In both episodes we see causality-breaking effects (Pinkie Keen and It’s About Time), it results in closed loop time travel. I haven’t invested too much thought into it, but can closed loop time travel be exploited via traveling to the future? It seems a very risky proposition, since we’ve already determined that time-travel can and will force paradoxes. You may only get one shot at seeing a future (and you can’t avoid the consequences), rather than being able to pick-and-choose possible futures. In this case, the more vague the future is, the better.
As an aside...I just remembered Twilight can already time travel. Yeah… that would make for some confusing debates.
I’ll have to check out that comic if the Chrysalis argument comes up, I suppose.
I’m not sure what you mean by trying to exploit closed-loop time travel through travelling to the future. Do you mean using future sight to see a desirable future and then trying to get there?
As for time travel, in this particular fic, my best answer is simply “Hell no.” If it comes up, Twilight and the alicorns can simply decide it’s a Really Bad Idea to use it, and they’re right, since nobody actually understands how the hell it works, because it violates causality in that fashion. Alternatively, I borrow an answer I saw in a fanfiction once: It can only be used once in a pony’s lifetime. And, obviously, the alicorns being immortal and all wouldn’t use up one of their precious uses of the spell for anything short of “The situation is hopeless, and Equestria is now 100% doomed.” (That is to say, I assume Celestia would have used it IF her attempt to jog Twilight’s memory against Discord had failed.) The second I saw that time travel episode, I was like “Oh crap.” because I knew that it would add a new layer of complexity to any realistic fanfiction I tried to write, in the sense that I would have to come up with some way to write it off. I am not smart enough to deal with time travel. I am nowhere near smart enough. As HPMOR points out, even stable time loops are ridiculously complicated and drive people stark raving mad with regularity.
My favorite explanation: since causality tries to avoid paradoxes, most time-travellers get squished by large rocks or natural disasters before they can act, because they would have tried to change things. Even if they were going to try and avoid changing the past, they would have inevitably made mistakes, so the only consistent result is either ignorance and co-incidence or dyeing almost immediately. Or the time spell failing due to unforseen problems, if you’re feeling generous.
As far as I understand it, causality is just the relationship between cause and effect. If I’m right, saying it tries to avoid paradoxes is like saying gravity acts whenever someone falls off a cliff to prevent them from flying.
If I really needed to explain away time travel in this fic, I’d probably have a future Twilight show up and say “Whatever you do, do NOT use time travel. I don’t care how bad it is. Even if Equestria is going to be destroyed if you don’t. DO. NOT. MESS. WITH. TIME.”
Fortunately, I don’t see any situation in this fic where Twilight would even want to use time travel. Arguments aren’t one-time only things, you can always come back with another counterpoint later against a rational opponent who’s arguing for the sake of finding out who’s right, rather than to win social status or something. And any losses of social status that may occur in the fic are nowhere near worthy of time-travel to fix them, it’d be like cleaning a house by burning it to the ground and building a new one.
That was a somewhat anthropomorphic allusion to the Novikov self-consistency principle. But yes, it is.
Fair enough.
EDIT:
You realize the canonical example of time travel was a stable loop, right? As was that pinkie-sense business.