I responded on fimfiction here, but I’ll copy it here:
First question: do you want Celestia to have good points, or not?
Celestia should probably argue that ponies are adapted to the cycle of death and rebirth; the trouble with immortality for everyone is that now ponies still have the drives to procreate, conquer, and replace their elders. Luna was Celestia’s first student that she elevated to immortality; things were fine for a hundred years, and then Luna grew tired of being perpetually number 2 and rebelled. Twilight was elevated only because she understands social dynamics enough to be okay with being perpetually second-tier and because she genuinely likes Celestia much more than Luna did. If Twilight spreads immortality to everyone, the result won’t be a complete reduction in deaths, but a transfer of deaths from age-related disease to murders, and Celestia is pretty sure that will lead to less harmony and happiness.
(Note: Faust has commented that she always planned for Twilight to be Celestia’s successor. If Celestia is immortal, she hardly needs a successor, but that’s how deeply ingrained that pattern is in the human psyche.)
She can also call on the destructive impact of family on civic society; Celestia banned cousin marriage, with the result that ponies couldn’t depend solely on their families, and had to have wider social networks. With immortality, families can grow much stronger than possible with no cousin marriage and old age, leading to clannishness, vendettas, and a collapse of social trust.
You can also put in technical constraints easily enough; if there’s a finite amount of life-extension magic to go around, then the conversation becomes a very short “why don’t we give everyone mansions?” “Because we can’t.” “Oh.” (That’s what I will eventually do with my fic: Princess Twilight is just as mortal as her friends, brother, and sister-in-law, and is encouraged to research longevity if she wants to stick around.)
Yeah, I’d rather not add hard technical constraints. Simply put, it ruins the entire story I have in mind. A story about the emotions of accepting the mortality of one’s friends isn’t a bad idea for a fanfiction, and I’m sure there’ll be plenty of them, but it’s simply not what I want to write.
Edit: You actually address some of this in your original post. I’ll leave it all here for reference, but in general, if the Deathists are periodically making valid arguments, I don’t think you have to worry as much about them seeming like strawponies.
It occurs to me that it’s entirely possible to have Celestia argue for a (looks hard to her but is actually soft) technical constraint, and rather than arguing against her, for Twilight to solve the technical problem.
I.E:
Celestia: “Twilight, I can’t make everyone an immortal Alicorn. As the first of many reasons, Equestria would run out of Food.”
Twilight: “Could you make one of my friends an immortal Alicorn if they could solve the problem of Equestria running out of Food?”
Celestia: “Of course, my little pony.”
Twilight gets Applejack to solve the food problem inherent in a exploding population of Immortals.
Luna: “I am amazed at the creativity of my sister’s most faithful student. But we still can’t make everyone an immortal Alicorn. Eventually, there would be clannish infighting.… I know that all to well.”
continues
Added bonus: this fits in with the theme of “Alicorn Acension is about solving problems noone else ever could.”
I mean, it seems like a lot of Deathism is “Given these unstoppable technical constraints, this is the best way to live.” So if you want Deathism to not feel like a strawpony, you have to let it bring up the technical constraints, and you can solve each one by either refuting the constraint, or refuting the argument. This allows a Deathist to sometimes make a perfectly valid argument, which is then solved once the constraint is resolved, so the Deathist is sometimes making valid arguments (which are then rendered obsolete) and sometimes making invalid logical arguments.
Definitely possible. After all, I’m not going to ignore technical constraints. I just don’t intend to invent them. Hell, I don’t have to. The problem is hard enough as it is. (For example, overpopulation is a very difficult technical constraint, and it arises naturally from the logic inherent to the canon setting.)
I don’t intend to write it in the fashion described (I.e, a largely linear story where Twilight and friends solve various technical constraints of alicornification in turn, being rewarded with immortality each time, until there aren’t any left) but technical constraints such as social pressure, overpopulation, and potential for magical abuse will definitely appear within the fanfic: Logical constraints that are inevitably going to come up within the Equestria setting that are significant obstacles to Twilight’s plan, but are not unbreakable. I’m even willing to accept the deathists winning if the plot turns on me and decides the protagonists shouldn’t win, but I’m not going to render one side completely unable to fight back, which would happen if the ideal of mass alicornification is scientifically impossible.
Your idea for the more linear fic is quite a good one, and in the event that I was unable to get enough material for the deathists, I could have definitely gone with it. But between the arguments I’ve gotten so far, I have plenty of material to ensure a real battle between the ideologies, rather than “Twilight wins because deathism is stupid.” If HPMOR has taught me anything about writing, it’s that both sides have to have a strong argument for the story to be as good as it can be.
I actually don’t know if I’ll be able to have any sufficiently intelligent characters in the fanfiction who think that death is a bad idea at a base level though, rather than being simply too dangerous, difficult, or logistically impossible to eliminate. The closest is probably going to be Luna, who’s going to have a very inflexible “It’s too dangerous” view, due to her own experiences at turning into Nightmare Moon and almost destroying Equestria. The view of “Death is good and part of the natural order” will be expressed, but I don’t think it fits any of the alicorns to have that viewpoint. A good example of a pony who could hold that view would be Applejack, but Applejack isn’t exactly the kind of pony to be able to engage Twilight in logical debate and put up a good fight with logic alone.
Why don’t we give as many people as we can mansions?
Also, there’s the possibility of eugenics. It has been established that dragons live significantly longer than ponies. If we increase the dragon population and decrease the pony population, there will be a net increase in lifespan.
How do we decide who to give mansions? Especially if the “finite” is real and it never comes back. Then you can virtually always make an argument for waiting. When you’re literally immortal, there’s no such thing as the perfect time to use an irreplacable resource. If you wait long enough, it’s basically a lock that somepony better will come along, if not this millenium then maybe the next one.
As for eugenics: Dragons take up a hell of a lot more space than ponies.
I responded on fimfiction here, but I’ll copy it here:
First question: do you want Celestia to have good points, or not?
Celestia should probably argue that ponies are adapted to the cycle of death and rebirth; the trouble with immortality for everyone is that now ponies still have the drives to procreate, conquer, and replace their elders. Luna was Celestia’s first student that she elevated to immortality; things were fine for a hundred years, and then Luna grew tired of being perpetually number 2 and rebelled. Twilight was elevated only because she understands social dynamics enough to be okay with being perpetually second-tier and because she genuinely likes Celestia much more than Luna did. If Twilight spreads immortality to everyone, the result won’t be a complete reduction in deaths, but a transfer of deaths from age-related disease to murders, and Celestia is pretty sure that will lead to less harmony and happiness.
(Note: Faust has commented that she always planned for Twilight to be Celestia’s successor. If Celestia is immortal, she hardly needs a successor, but that’s how deeply ingrained that pattern is in the human psyche.)
She can also call on the destructive impact of family on civic society; Celestia banned cousin marriage, with the result that ponies couldn’t depend solely on their families, and had to have wider social networks. With immortality, families can grow much stronger than possible with no cousin marriage and old age, leading to clannishness, vendettas, and a collapse of social trust.
You can also put in technical constraints easily enough; if there’s a finite amount of life-extension magic to go around, then the conversation becomes a very short “why don’t we give everyone mansions?” “Because we can’t.” “Oh.” (That’s what I will eventually do with my fic: Princess Twilight is just as mortal as her friends, brother, and sister-in-law, and is encouraged to research longevity if she wants to stick around.)
Yeah, I’d rather not add hard technical constraints. Simply put, it ruins the entire story I have in mind. A story about the emotions of accepting the mortality of one’s friends isn’t a bad idea for a fanfiction, and I’m sure there’ll be plenty of them, but it’s simply not what I want to write.
Edit: You actually address some of this in your original post. I’ll leave it all here for reference, but in general, if the Deathists are periodically making valid arguments, I don’t think you have to worry as much about them seeming like strawponies.
It occurs to me that it’s entirely possible to have Celestia argue for a (looks hard to her but is actually soft) technical constraint, and rather than arguing against her, for Twilight to solve the technical problem.
I.E:
Celestia: “Twilight, I can’t make everyone an immortal Alicorn. As the first of many reasons, Equestria would run out of Food.”
Twilight: “Could you make one of my friends an immortal Alicorn if they could solve the problem of Equestria running out of Food?”
Celestia: “Of course, my little pony.”
Twilight gets Applejack to solve the food problem inherent in a exploding population of Immortals.
Impressed, Celestia grants Applejack Alicorn Immortality.
Luna: “I am amazed at the creativity of my sister’s most faithful student. But we still can’t make everyone an immortal Alicorn. Eventually, there would be clannish infighting.… I know that all to well.”
continues
Added bonus: this fits in with the theme of “Alicorn Acension is about solving problems noone else ever could.”
I mean, it seems like a lot of Deathism is “Given these unstoppable technical constraints, this is the best way to live.” So if you want Deathism to not feel like a strawpony, you have to let it bring up the technical constraints, and you can solve each one by either refuting the constraint, or refuting the argument. This allows a Deathist to sometimes make a perfectly valid argument, which is then solved once the constraint is resolved, so the Deathist is sometimes making valid arguments (which are then rendered obsolete) and sometimes making invalid logical arguments.
Definitely possible. After all, I’m not going to ignore technical constraints. I just don’t intend to invent them. Hell, I don’t have to. The problem is hard enough as it is. (For example, overpopulation is a very difficult technical constraint, and it arises naturally from the logic inherent to the canon setting.)
I don’t intend to write it in the fashion described (I.e, a largely linear story where Twilight and friends solve various technical constraints of alicornification in turn, being rewarded with immortality each time, until there aren’t any left) but technical constraints such as social pressure, overpopulation, and potential for magical abuse will definitely appear within the fanfic: Logical constraints that are inevitably going to come up within the Equestria setting that are significant obstacles to Twilight’s plan, but are not unbreakable. I’m even willing to accept the deathists winning if the plot turns on me and decides the protagonists shouldn’t win, but I’m not going to render one side completely unable to fight back, which would happen if the ideal of mass alicornification is scientifically impossible.
Your idea for the more linear fic is quite a good one, and in the event that I was unable to get enough material for the deathists, I could have definitely gone with it. But between the arguments I’ve gotten so far, I have plenty of material to ensure a real battle between the ideologies, rather than “Twilight wins because deathism is stupid.” If HPMOR has taught me anything about writing, it’s that both sides have to have a strong argument for the story to be as good as it can be.
I actually don’t know if I’ll be able to have any sufficiently intelligent characters in the fanfiction who think that death is a bad idea at a base level though, rather than being simply too dangerous, difficult, or logistically impossible to eliminate. The closest is probably going to be Luna, who’s going to have a very inflexible “It’s too dangerous” view, due to her own experiences at turning into Nightmare Moon and almost destroying Equestria. The view of “Death is good and part of the natural order” will be expressed, but I don’t think it fits any of the alicorns to have that viewpoint. A good example of a pony who could hold that view would be Applejack, but Applejack isn’t exactly the kind of pony to be able to engage Twilight in logical debate and put up a good fight with logic alone.
Why don’t we give as many people as we can mansions?
Also, there’s the possibility of eugenics. It has been established that dragons live significantly longer than ponies. If we increase the dragon population and decrease the pony population, there will be a net increase in lifespan.
How do we decide who to give mansions? Especially if the “finite” is real and it never comes back. Then you can virtually always make an argument for waiting. When you’re literally immortal, there’s no such thing as the perfect time to use an irreplacable resource. If you wait long enough, it’s basically a lock that somepony better will come along, if not this millenium then maybe the next one.
As for eugenics: Dragons take up a hell of a lot more space than ponies.