Maybe it’s just me, but your comments here seem a bit hostile.
I’m expressing disagreement with a common meme around here. Of course that will seem a bit hostile. But I shall not engage in any red-pill framing of that uninteresting fact.
If you are arguing that things you can’t say are toxic outside LW for the untrained masses
I’m not talking about the things you can’t say, but about the idea of things you can’t say. That idea is a shield against reality, a mirror that makes everything behind it seem real, when it is just a distorted reflection of oneself.
Come on, this is a straw man. The OP was talking about abusers, not fictional extremists.
Ok, I would not seriously attribute the view I described to anyone on LW. But there are people who explicitly believe in exactly that view, exactly as extremely as I portrayed it, and surround it with red-pill rhetoric. There is at least one on LW (who has not posted in this thread) who holds at least to a lesser form of men’s rightful power over women, and who I confidently expect would express approval of the joke in the original article. This is not fiction; I did not make any of it up.
Tone is usually uninteresting, but I think it’s worth noting in the case of these “red pill” ideas; The red-pill types tend to use careful argument (because they have to to be taken seriously) while the maintream responders use weak arguments and social bullying (because they are surrounded by fellow believers).
That is not my observation. The article linked here is a good example of red-pill performance ranting. The whole thing could just as easily be expressed as platitudes of Deep Wisdom: “ask not what other people can do for you, but what you can do for them”, “to give is to receive”, etc., and in other places it would be. There’s not much argument there, careful or otherwise. Of course not—it’s cracked.com, that’s the sort of thing that people go there for. I previously linked another example of the genre here.
Working through the Google hits for “red pill” turns up few specimens of conspicuous rationality, and to talk about “mainstream responders” is already to have yielded to the tainted insight of the red pill pusher.
That idea is a shield against reality, a mirror that makes everything behind it seem real, when it is just a distorted reflection of oneself.
This is a good point. Thanks for pointing it out to me. I’ve been having a crisis of faith on quite a few of those “red pill” ideas recently and I’m sure this will be useful next time I think about any of it.
That said, it seems to me that the standard cult attractor advice and conservation of expected evidence is sufficient to diffuse this effect. Do you think so, too? Or do you think we are not good enough at it such that we have to add extra caution? Or something else?
Basically what do you recommend for a well-sequenced LWer to do to entangle their beliefs with reality on these sorts of issues?
That is not my observation.
Huh. I wonder why. I don’t really hang out anywhere like PUA forums or racist blogs or anything like that, so maybe I only encounter the good stuff that has enough sensibleness to it to filter into the rest of the internet? I guess then we would see the opposite on PUA forums; mostly average idiots who can’t handle the is-ought distinction, and a few intelligent mainstreamers coming in and poking holes in people’s tripe (I also might expect a few more troll raids from mainstreamers than there are troll raids from PUA to mainstreamer areas, though this could easily be confounded by other factors)
The article linked here is a good example of red-pill performance ranting.
That article is fucking gold. Thanks for the link. Now unfortunately that was not the point you were trying to make...
I did notice (since you sent me there looking for it) that it was callous and condescending and such (even for cracked). I also noticed that I don’t usually notice that kind of stuff outside LW and other “intellectual areas”. If you hadn’t pointed it out, I would have just filtered the crusty crap and kept the good advice at it’s core. I guess it’s a habit I picked up from 4chan.
The whole thing could just as easily be expressed as platitudes of Deep Wisdom: “ask not what other people can do for you, but what you can do for them”, “to give is to receive”, etc., and in other places it would be.
I’ve got a better one. I summed up the whole thing with “Just Do It!”. However, I don’t think it’s a good idea to dismiss an article because you can say the same thing without 99% of the article. Here’s why:
I run into pieces of genuine good advice all the time, on LW and elsewhere, and I’ve noticed that I can’t really learn or take advice from just a summary of it. Summaries of ideas works really well to precipitate concepts that you already have all the support for, and to convey dry facts, but not for advice and experience. See moral truth in fiction for an analogous argument. As an example, When I read truly a part of you, I was like “yeah that’s cool”, it wasn’t until later that I figured the idea out for myself and realized “holy crap someone already told me this.”
So with that said, even if you can boil down the essential idea of an article to a single sentence, it may still have substantial value as something that creates the experience required for you to actually get the idea. I think that cracked article works like this. It’s a simple idea (not even 6 simple ideas), but all the added inflammatory crust create an experience the actually communicates the idea, instead of just saying it.
I can believe that that article is not written in a way that works for everyone, but I think that for some people (the target audience, for example), it’s exactly what they need to hear, and anything nicer wouldn’t get the point across.
I will throw in that the “come on aren’t you man enough to hear the truth?” thing is toxic as a rhetorical device, as it can make otherwise worthless stuff more compelling. (because if you don’t even read this then you are weak).
I don’t really hang out anywhere like PUA forums or racist blogs or anything like that, so maybe I only encounter the good stuff that has enough sensibleness to it to filter into the rest of the internet?
Like cracked.com and 4chan? Sensibleness is not the filter for popularity on the internet.
That article is fucking gold. Thanks for the link. Now unfortunately that was not the point you were trying to make...
Different people respond to different forms. Some are suckers for a man in a white coat intoning “studies have shown”. Some will lap up Deep Wisdom from anyone in Tibetan robes. Some will believe anyone who shouts at them loudly enough. (Makes for some interesting dynamics on PUA and NLP forums, where assertion is alpha, but both agreement and disagreement are beta.)
However, I don’t think it’s a good idea to dismiss an article because you can say the same thing without 99% of the article.
It’s more that you can write the same content with a completely different 99%, with many completely different 99%s. Ayn Rand, Thich Nhat Hanh, and Feynman could have written the same content, in different ways. How does one determine whether one is responding to the clothing of the message, rather than the content? The red pill idea is particularly attractive to anyone who thinks they’re smarter than those around them. And look where we are, LessWrong, where “contrarian” is a compliment, as if reversed consensus were intelligence.
I can believe that that article is not written in a way that works for everyone, but I think that for some people (the target audience, for example), it’s exactly what they need to hear, and anything nicer wouldn’t get the point across.
Skilful means, as the Buddhists put it. But of those who think they learned something from that article, how many would have learned whatever message the writer might have expressed in the same style?
And look where we are, LessWrong, where “contrarian” is a compliment, as if reversed consensus were intelligence.
Can you link to an example of someone using it as a compliment? I don’t think this is actually the case. It’s simply much less of an insult here than it is in most “skeptic” communities.
In the first link you quoted me describing Moldbug, I should clarify it was used as a put down. I’ve said quite explicitly in other posts that I strongly agree with Hanson on contrarianism.
In the second link the person continues:
The result is that I’m biased towards contrarian theses, which I think is useful for improving group rationality in most cases, but still isn’t rational.
The third is a good example but it is in an article talking about how weird LessWrong is for its love of contrarianism.
I did mean “and most of all contrarian” quite seriously, I just didn’t expect readers to take that as good. It was meant as a warning since I think Moldbug would be a better thinker if he was less contrarian but I’ll update on you reading of it when using the term in the future.
This apparent misunderstanding on second thought isn’t surprising since this community is self-selected for the kind of people who like enjoy contrarian arguments. Weird out there (not saying incorrect) beliefs such as buying cryonics being a good idea otherwise wouldn’t be popular here.
In addition to this if you visit a site where examples of human cognitive failure are investigate every day and individual debasing techniques discussed, but little ephasis is given on how to build communities that have good epistemology or avoid the biases one seems likely to find the story of “lone genius exposes establishment consensus as nonsense” more plausible than otherwise.
Ok, I would not seriously attribute the view I described to anyone on LW. But there are people who explicitly believe in exactly that view, exactly as extremely as I portrayed it, and surround it with red-pill rhetoric. There is at least one on LW (who has not posted in this thread) who holds at least to a lesser form of men’s rightful power over women, and who I confidently expect would express approval of the joke in the original article. This is not fiction; I did not make any of it up.
For what it’s worth, I agree that this poster is at least as characteristic of the meme cluster we’re talking about as its more polite/locally celebrated/refined advocates. What’s worse, I suspect that it’s the locally celebrated “red-pill” contrarians who are shrinking from the conclusions of many of their (anti-egalitarian, etc) memes and that this poster just logically extrapolates the “red-pill” premises to produce his alarming view of gender, “deviancy”, etc.
Another far more famous example is Theodore Beale/Vox Day… and a few other bloggers whom I’d rather not link to.
I’m expressing disagreement with a common meme around here. Of course that will seem a bit hostile. But I shall not engage in any red-pill framing of that uninteresting fact.
I’m not talking about the things you can’t say, but about the idea of things you can’t say. That idea is a shield against reality, a mirror that makes everything behind it seem real, when it is just a distorted reflection of oneself.
Ok, I would not seriously attribute the view I described to anyone on LW. But there are people who explicitly believe in exactly that view, exactly as extremely as I portrayed it, and surround it with red-pill rhetoric. There is at least one on LW (who has not posted in this thread) who holds at least to a lesser form of men’s rightful power over women, and who I confidently expect would express approval of the joke in the original article. This is not fiction; I did not make any of it up.
That is not my observation. The article linked here is a good example of red-pill performance ranting. The whole thing could just as easily be expressed as platitudes of Deep Wisdom: “ask not what other people can do for you, but what you can do for them”, “to give is to receive”, etc., and in other places it would be. There’s not much argument there, careful or otherwise. Of course not—it’s cracked.com, that’s the sort of thing that people go there for. I previously linked another example of the genre here.
Working through the Google hits for “red pill” turns up few specimens of conspicuous rationality, and to talk about “mainstream responders” is already to have yielded to the tainted insight of the red pill pusher.
This is a good point. Thanks for pointing it out to me. I’ve been having a crisis of faith on quite a few of those “red pill” ideas recently and I’m sure this will be useful next time I think about any of it.
That said, it seems to me that the standard cult attractor advice and conservation of expected evidence is sufficient to diffuse this effect. Do you think so, too? Or do you think we are not good enough at it such that we have to add extra caution? Or something else?
Basically what do you recommend for a well-sequenced LWer to do to entangle their beliefs with reality on these sorts of issues?
Huh. I wonder why. I don’t really hang out anywhere like PUA forums or racist blogs or anything like that, so maybe I only encounter the good stuff that has enough sensibleness to it to filter into the rest of the internet? I guess then we would see the opposite on PUA forums; mostly average idiots who can’t handle the is-ought distinction, and a few intelligent mainstreamers coming in and poking holes in people’s tripe (I also might expect a few more troll raids from mainstreamers than there are troll raids from PUA to mainstreamer areas, though this could easily be confounded by other factors)
That article is fucking gold. Thanks for the link. Now unfortunately that was not the point you were trying to make...
I did notice (since you sent me there looking for it) that it was callous and condescending and such (even for cracked). I also noticed that I don’t usually notice that kind of stuff outside LW and other “intellectual areas”. If you hadn’t pointed it out, I would have just filtered the crusty crap and kept the good advice at it’s core. I guess it’s a habit I picked up from 4chan.
I’ve got a better one. I summed up the whole thing with “Just Do It!”. However, I don’t think it’s a good idea to dismiss an article because you can say the same thing without 99% of the article. Here’s why:
I run into pieces of genuine good advice all the time, on LW and elsewhere, and I’ve noticed that I can’t really learn or take advice from just a summary of it. Summaries of ideas works really well to precipitate concepts that you already have all the support for, and to convey dry facts, but not for advice and experience. See moral truth in fiction for an analogous argument. As an example, When I read truly a part of you, I was like “yeah that’s cool”, it wasn’t until later that I figured the idea out for myself and realized “holy crap someone already told me this.”
So with that said, even if you can boil down the essential idea of an article to a single sentence, it may still have substantial value as something that creates the experience required for you to actually get the idea. I think that cracked article works like this. It’s a simple idea (not even 6 simple ideas), but all the added inflammatory crust create an experience the actually communicates the idea, instead of just saying it.
I can believe that that article is not written in a way that works for everyone, but I think that for some people (the target audience, for example), it’s exactly what they need to hear, and anything nicer wouldn’t get the point across.
I will throw in that the “come on aren’t you man enough to hear the truth?” thing is toxic as a rhetorical device, as it can make otherwise worthless stuff more compelling. (because if you don’t even read this then you are weak).
Like cracked.com and 4chan? Sensibleness is not the filter for popularity on the internet.
Different people respond to different forms. Some are suckers for a man in a white coat intoning “studies have shown”. Some will lap up Deep Wisdom from anyone in Tibetan robes. Some will believe anyone who shouts at them loudly enough. (Makes for some interesting dynamics on PUA and NLP forums, where assertion is alpha, but both agreement and disagreement are beta.)
It’s more that you can write the same content with a completely different 99%, with many completely different 99%s. Ayn Rand, Thich Nhat Hanh, and Feynman could have written the same content, in different ways. How does one determine whether one is responding to the clothing of the message, rather than the content? The red pill idea is particularly attractive to anyone who thinks they’re smarter than those around them. And look where we are, LessWrong, where “contrarian” is a compliment, as if reversed consensus were intelligence.
Skilful means, as the Buddhists put it. But of those who think they learned something from that article, how many would have learned whatever message the writer might have expressed in the same style?
Can you link to an example of someone using it as a compliment? I don’t think this is actually the case. It’s simply much less of an insult here than it is in most “skeptic” communities.
Yes:
Yes (a self-description rather than a compliment to someone else, but clearly intended to be read as a worthy attribute):
Here is someone excusing themselves for not being contrarian:
In the first link you quoted me describing Moldbug, I should clarify it was used as a put down. I’ve said quite explicitly in other posts that I strongly agree with Hanson on contrarianism.
In the second link the person continues:
The third is a good example but it is in an article talking about how weird LessWrong is for its love of contrarianism.
I’ll take your word for your intentions, but the article itself gives me no impression that it was intended anything other than seriously.
I did mean “and most of all contrarian” quite seriously, I just didn’t expect readers to take that as good. It was meant as a warning since I think Moldbug would be a better thinker if he was less contrarian but I’ll update on you reading of it when using the term in the future.
This apparent misunderstanding on second thought isn’t surprising since this community is self-selected for the kind of people who like enjoy contrarian arguments. Weird out there (not saying incorrect) beliefs such as buying cryonics being a good idea otherwise wouldn’t be popular here.
In addition to this if you visit a site where examples of human cognitive failure are investigate every day and individual debasing techniques discussed, but little ephasis is given on how to build communities that have good epistemology or avoid the biases one seems likely to find the story of “lone genius exposes establishment consensus as nonsense” more plausible than otherwise.
For what it’s worth, I agree that this poster is at least as characteristic of the meme cluster we’re talking about as its more polite/locally celebrated/refined advocates. What’s worse, I suspect that it’s the locally celebrated “red-pill” contrarians who are shrinking from the conclusions of many of their (anti-egalitarian, etc) memes and that this poster just logically extrapolates the “red-pill” premises to produce his alarming view of gender, “deviancy”, etc.
Another far more famous example is Theodore Beale/Vox Day… and a few other bloggers whom I’d rather not link to.