Thanks! That doesn’t match my experience at all, so it’s nice to learn about.
maybe that’s the gap that you have to overcome using your conscious decision to behave nicely to the other person even if at the moment you don’t feel emotionally compelled to
Crushing fear of being abusive, and guilt about having hurt them in the past, works really well for this.
Something feels to me really wrong about that last sentence. Not that it hypothetically couldn’t be technically true, but it’s certainly not a way I would recommend to anyone. Associating love and closeness with fear and guilt… that’s how I model a strongly religious person or a victim in an abusive relationship… and it’s a state of mind I definitely do not endorse. (I try keeping an open mind that there may be some specific situation where it isn’t as bad as it seems to me, but I give it a low probability.) For me, feeling safe is an opposite of fear, so an idea of a “crushing fear and guilt” as a way towards love makes as much sense as stabbing oneself with a knife as a way to achieve health (yes, there may be a very specific situation where...).
Considering this and your previous comments, I update towards belief that you simply don’t have an experience with the emotion, and the verbal explanations just don’t click because there is nothing to connect the words with. (Alternatively, you may have the experience with the emotion in some other context, but something in your mind prevents you from even imagining it in the context of a sexual relation.) Which sounds like a horrible thing, so I’d recommend trying… uhm… a) speaking about this topic with a psychologist; b) finding a couple with a good long-term relationship and either ask them or just spend a lot of time around them to learn by copying; c) speaking about this with someone you trust, e.g. on the next LW meetup, but personally, not online, because an online debate does not transfer emotions well.
(I apologize if this offended you, of course there is a chance that I am completely wrong, but the value of information is possibly very big here.)
Wait, you mean actually feel safe, as in you can relax just as much as when you’re alone with a good book, not just be aware that the person is allied to you? How does that jive with “using your conscious decision to behave nicely to the other person even if at the moment you don’t feel emotionally compelled to”?
I was abused as a child. You seem to be very distressed about this, so let me make it clear that my life is pretty good and I don’t have any awful traumas or anything. But all sources of advice about how to move on and go on about one’s life insist on this: abuse screws up attachment. If I ever (ever, not “before I’ve healed enough”) drop my CONSTANT VIGILANCE!, I will hurt people who love me for the power trip (this is confirmed by experience), and I will be abused again by someone who notices I’m an easy victim (this isn’t; Shiny Boyfriend is astoundingly ethical).
There’s probably a better way to keep those bad tendencies in check than through fear and guilt, which is why I brought it up. But your version of love seems incompatible with having bad tendencies in the first place.
you mean actually feel safe, as in you can relax just as much as when you’re alone with a good book
Yes. Well, almost; nothing is perfect. There are some sensitive topics and situations, but the longer we are together, the less sensitive they become, because our expectations of “if a person does X, they will probably also do a bad thing Y” are repeatedly proven wrong.
How does that jive with “using your conscious decision to behave nicely to the other person even if at the moment you don’t feel emotionally compelled to”?
Two things. First, sometimes my emotions are irrational, but I am aware of it, and I decide not to act on the emotion. As an example, some people get angry at work because of some problem at work, then they come home but the frustration is high in them, and then they start screaming at their family members because of some trivial mistake they made. (Often the mistake is something real, but the emotion and the reaction are hugely disproportional.) I try to be aware of this, try to be fair, and rather to err on the side of calmness. Sometimes I make a note of the topic I wanted to discuss, and I mention it later when the strong emotions are gone and we are able to discuss it calmly. This all happens rarely (once in a few months), and is less frequent the longer we are together. But even if it’s rare, if I had reacted otherwise, it would certainly have bad long-term consequences.
Second, sometimes I decide to do something small and nice even if my feelings at given moment are neutral. It’s like the rule that when you start smiling, even if you don’t feel happy, the act of smiling makes you a bit more happy—I’m just doing it to other person and starting a small positive feedback loop of nice feelings. For example, thinking for 10 seconds about “is there something nice (and true) I could say about the other person now?” Another example, if I am happy or satisfied with something the other person did, my natural reaction would be to enjoy it quietly; but instead I take the extra step of saying “thank you”. Even when it’s something trivial. I don’t comment the trivial things all the time, but in random moments. (Maybe this part is just compensating for my character flaws; other people may do this automatically without thinking about it.) The important thing is that this part doesn’t cause me any stress at all. I’m not doing this from a sense of duty, but as a rational strategic decision. I just have to keep reminding myself, because I keep forgetting.
I was abused as a child. You seem to be very distressed about this, so let me make it clear that my life is pretty good and I don’t have any awful traumas or anything.
That’s what I expected, but didn’t want to say it directly without better evidence and without knowing how you would react. That’s very good you can admit it; some people didn’t get even this far. And it’s good to hear that you succeeded to have a good life. -- Without pushing you, I just want to say that it possibly could be even better. Maybe you missed some skills, and you manage to live successfully without them; but learning them anyway could give you more options and get even more happiness.
all sources of advice about how to move on and go on about one’s life insist on this: abuse screws up attachment.
I agree with this, but it doesn’t have to be like this forever, and certainly not with the same intensity. Using the materialist framework: your brain synapses keep changing all the time, and there exists a finite amount of change that would solve your problem. Yeah, I know that without specific numbers, we can’t estimate how much time would it take; and even if we knew which synapses need to be changed, that’s easier said than done. On the other hand, most people are not strategic, so just by acting strategically, your chances should be better than usual. I’m not able to make an estimate, but I believe that if there is 50% chance of success, and it would take 10 or 20 years, it’s probably still worth trying.
Switching from the role of an abused person to the role of abusive person, that’s probably what most former victims do. I mean, it’s the shortest inferential step: you keep the model of the relations, you only change your role in the system. That’s hundred times more easier than following a new model, especially if you haven’t experienced it, so you would have to invent it yourself. If we assume that people do the best thing their models allow, being an abuser is the best thing in the model that only contains two roles. (This is why I recommended “finding a couple with a good long-term relationship and either ask them or just spend a lot of time around them to learn by copying”. To build a better model, on the intuition level.) Also, if you learn a new thing, it is completely natural to screw up a few times.
But your version of love seems incompatible with having bad tendencies in the first place.
Everyone has some bad tendencies. I may seem like a nice person, because that’s how I present myself here, but there are people around me who have been hurt by my dark side. I’m not saying it’s the same degree, just that it is a scale, not a set of distinct categories. And an important part of becoming a good person is to try hard. Some people don’t. You already do.
Okay. I’m not telling you to try something that seems dangerous to you. Just… keep observing and learning, even if you don’t try it immediately. (Perhaps try loving-kindness meditation—just the exercise, without the religious theory.) Good luck!
Thanks! That doesn’t match my experience at all, so it’s nice to learn about.
Crushing fear of being abusive, and guilt about having hurt them in the past, works really well for this.
Something feels to me really wrong about that last sentence. Not that it hypothetically couldn’t be technically true, but it’s certainly not a way I would recommend to anyone. Associating love and closeness with fear and guilt… that’s how I model a strongly religious person or a victim in an abusive relationship… and it’s a state of mind I definitely do not endorse. (I try keeping an open mind that there may be some specific situation where it isn’t as bad as it seems to me, but I give it a low probability.) For me, feeling safe is an opposite of fear, so an idea of a “crushing fear and guilt” as a way towards love makes as much sense as stabbing oneself with a knife as a way to achieve health (yes, there may be a very specific situation where...).
Considering this and your previous comments, I update towards belief that you simply don’t have an experience with the emotion, and the verbal explanations just don’t click because there is nothing to connect the words with. (Alternatively, you may have the experience with the emotion in some other context, but something in your mind prevents you from even imagining it in the context of a sexual relation.) Which sounds like a horrible thing, so I’d recommend trying… uhm… a) speaking about this topic with a psychologist; b) finding a couple with a good long-term relationship and either ask them or just spend a lot of time around them to learn by copying; c) speaking about this with someone you trust, e.g. on the next LW meetup, but personally, not online, because an online debate does not transfer emotions well.
(I apologize if this offended you, of course there is a chance that I am completely wrong, but the value of information is possibly very big here.)
Wait, you mean actually feel safe, as in you can relax just as much as when you’re alone with a good book, not just be aware that the person is allied to you? How does that jive with “using your conscious decision to behave nicely to the other person even if at the moment you don’t feel emotionally compelled to”?
I was abused as a child. You seem to be very distressed about this, so let me make it clear that my life is pretty good and I don’t have any awful traumas or anything. But all sources of advice about how to move on and go on about one’s life insist on this: abuse screws up attachment. If I ever (ever, not “before I’ve healed enough”) drop my CONSTANT VIGILANCE!, I will hurt people who love me for the power trip (this is confirmed by experience), and I will be abused again by someone who notices I’m an easy victim (this isn’t; Shiny Boyfriend is astoundingly ethical).
There’s probably a better way to keep those bad tendencies in check than through fear and guilt, which is why I brought it up. But your version of love seems incompatible with having bad tendencies in the first place.
Yes. Well, almost; nothing is perfect. There are some sensitive topics and situations, but the longer we are together, the less sensitive they become, because our expectations of “if a person does X, they will probably also do a bad thing Y” are repeatedly proven wrong.
Two things. First, sometimes my emotions are irrational, but I am aware of it, and I decide not to act on the emotion. As an example, some people get angry at work because of some problem at work, then they come home but the frustration is high in them, and then they start screaming at their family members because of some trivial mistake they made. (Often the mistake is something real, but the emotion and the reaction are hugely disproportional.) I try to be aware of this, try to be fair, and rather to err on the side of calmness. Sometimes I make a note of the topic I wanted to discuss, and I mention it later when the strong emotions are gone and we are able to discuss it calmly. This all happens rarely (once in a few months), and is less frequent the longer we are together. But even if it’s rare, if I had reacted otherwise, it would certainly have bad long-term consequences.
Second, sometimes I decide to do something small and nice even if my feelings at given moment are neutral. It’s like the rule that when you start smiling, even if you don’t feel happy, the act of smiling makes you a bit more happy—I’m just doing it to other person and starting a small positive feedback loop of nice feelings. For example, thinking for 10 seconds about “is there something nice (and true) I could say about the other person now?” Another example, if I am happy or satisfied with something the other person did, my natural reaction would be to enjoy it quietly; but instead I take the extra step of saying “thank you”. Even when it’s something trivial. I don’t comment the trivial things all the time, but in random moments. (Maybe this part is just compensating for my character flaws; other people may do this automatically without thinking about it.) The important thing is that this part doesn’t cause me any stress at all. I’m not doing this from a sense of duty, but as a rational strategic decision. I just have to keep reminding myself, because I keep forgetting.
That’s what I expected, but didn’t want to say it directly without better evidence and without knowing how you would react. That’s very good you can admit it; some people didn’t get even this far. And it’s good to hear that you succeeded to have a good life. -- Without pushing you, I just want to say that it possibly could be even better. Maybe you missed some skills, and you manage to live successfully without them; but learning them anyway could give you more options and get even more happiness.
I agree with this, but it doesn’t have to be like this forever, and certainly not with the same intensity. Using the materialist framework: your brain synapses keep changing all the time, and there exists a finite amount of change that would solve your problem. Yeah, I know that without specific numbers, we can’t estimate how much time would it take; and even if we knew which synapses need to be changed, that’s easier said than done. On the other hand, most people are not strategic, so just by acting strategically, your chances should be better than usual. I’m not able to make an estimate, but I believe that if there is 50% chance of success, and it would take 10 or 20 years, it’s probably still worth trying.
Switching from the role of an abused person to the role of abusive person, that’s probably what most former victims do. I mean, it’s the shortest inferential step: you keep the model of the relations, you only change your role in the system. That’s hundred times more easier than following a new model, especially if you haven’t experienced it, so you would have to invent it yourself. If we assume that people do the best thing their models allow, being an abuser is the best thing in the model that only contains two roles. (This is why I recommended “finding a couple with a good long-term relationship and either ask them or just spend a lot of time around them to learn by copying”. To build a better model, on the intuition level.) Also, if you learn a new thing, it is completely natural to screw up a few times.
Everyone has some bad tendencies. I may seem like a nice person, because that’s how I present myself here, but there are people around me who have been hurt by my dark side. I’m not saying it’s the same degree, just that it is a scale, not a set of distinct categories. And an important part of becoming a good person is to try hard. Some people don’t. You already do.
Okay. I’m not telling you to try something that seems dangerous to you. Just… keep observing and learning, even if you don’t try it immediately. (Perhaps try loving-kindness meditation—just the exercise, without the religious theory.) Good luck!