I do agree that the mere fact “markets” are not providing some quantity of publicly accessable bathrooms is hardly an argument that we have a good equalibrium quantity—or even a good nominal/social want quantity.
However, my experience in the USA is that the overwhelming (like on the order of 80%) of the bathrooms I’ve used in public were in fact on private property and privately provided—be they gas stations, shopping malls/stores, restaurants/cafes and the like. Sometimes I will use ones in a (mostly public?) place such as state tourist stops on interstates or highway reststops or in airports and some subway systems. (Many of those as actually private but clearly a contract out solution with government specifying what the services will be). I also note that in a sizable number of cases the more public solutions are pretty poor, unsanitary and often even dangerous.
I do have some agreement with the eye96458 in that it seems a very localized problem for some urban centers and not really a general issue for the USA in general.
I do agree that the mere fact “markets” are not providing some quantity of publicly accessable bathrooms is hardly an argument that we have a good equalibrium quantity—or even a good nominal/social want quantity.
Would you provide your reasoning for this? I’m interested in understanding it.
[This will not be well detailed but hope provides a sense of why I made the claim.]
The most obvious one, and perhaps directly revelant here, is the concept of effective demand—in a market setting those without the money to buy goods or services lack any effective demand. I would concede that alone is not sufficient (or necessary) to reject the claim. But it does point to a way markets do fail to allocate resources to arguably valuable ends. But effective demand failures often produce social and governmental incentives to provide the effective demand for those without resources to pay themselves.
I think one can see two lines of though pointing towards under provision when considering social/government responses to the presense of ineffective demand. The standard economic market failure of under provision of public goods. The other is the issue of narrow and broad insterest in how government/public funds get spent. It’s not clear to me how strong any narrow interest for increasing public toilets are in terms of driving that spending.
I don’t think the public good → under provision (outside some expected range of what a proper market equalibrium should produce) is something one just assumes. Would have to look into things more closely. But the same holds for the “we have markets so it’s all good” type argument too. As is generally the case, the devil is in the details and not the general propositions.
I want to clarify a few things before trying to respond substantively.
The most obvious one, and perhaps directly revelant here, is the concept of effective demand—in a market setting those without the money to buy goods or services lack any effective demand. I would concede that alone is not sufficient (or necessary) to reject the claim. But it does point to a way markets do fail to allocate resources to arguably valuable ends. But effective demand failures often produce social and governmental incentives to provide the effective demand for those without resources to pay themselves.
I don’t have a well-developed understanding of economics and I’m confused about what meaning the term “effective demand” has in this context.
Or, maybe instead, can you tell me what is the difference between demand and effective demand?
I suspect that you are trying to highlight that destitute people still have preferences even though they do not have any resources to aid in realizing those preferences, but I’m not sure.
I think one can see two lines of though pointing towards under provision when considering social/government responses to the presense of ineffective demand. The standard economic market failure of under provision of public goods.
After doing a bit of reading, it appears to me that one of the required criteria for something to be a public good is for it to be non-excludable. But aren’t bathrooms very excludable? Just put a lock on the door that will only open after swiping a credit card.
The other is the issue of narrow and broad insterest in how government/public funds get spent. It’s not clear to me how strong any narrow interest for increasing public toilets are in terms of driving that spending.
Are you pointing out that the homeless have a narrow interest (in the technical economic sense) in the government operating free to use bathrooms?
While I think you can get to my point with either of the links, a lot more is going on in those links that will confuse and complicate the path. The simple point is that without available resources (typically money) to bid for additionaly output one simply has no way to bid resouces away from other production/uses and increase output of X (here public toilets) in a market.
In a pure sense public goods only exist in theory. But there are good that seem to behave a lot like the theoretical good. Looking at a situation through the lens of public goods then provides some useful insights. In this case, the idea of public bathrooms is all about making toilets available to anyone in the area who needs one. In other words it really is not about specific bathroom/toilets but toilet services where one will be available to anyone needing it rather than them needing to use the alley or pay for access.
So if some are shitting in the alleys, and they are not doing so even when they could have used a toilet, then seems the view that current market equalibrium might be off. The two points above just point to reasons why it might be off. Note, that doesn’t mean it is, it’s generally understood that the social equalibrium is not expected to be a 0 (be it polution, or people shitting on the street) solution. We should not assume what is is what should be.
Homeless people may have narrow interests but they have no direct political infulence generally; they cannot do lobbying well and don’t represent a concentrated voting block (probably cannot vote at all lacking a home address). The general public is not a narrow, well organized group that wants to eliminate shitting in the alley by providing increased levels of toilet services. So in some way the poltical eonomy equalibrium is some shitting in the alley, and the (to me at least) kind of obvious under provision of some public good (which might be public toilets, cleaner streets and healthier envionments)
Taking a step back, let me just grant that people shitting in the streets is good evidence that the current price of using a bathroom is too high for some people who would, all else equal, rather use a bathroom than shit in the streets (So, insofar that my original comment suggested that the cost of using the bathroom was cheap enough that anyone who wanted to shit could afford to use a bathroom, I am retracting it.).
And if one’s goal is to reduce the amount of shitting in the streets, then reducing the cost of using the bathroom is a good strategy. And it is possible that the best way to reduce the cost of using the bathroom is to fund bathrooms with tax money.
Then I suspect we are just having a straightforward disagreement over:
Should the government make using the bathroom cheaper?
If so, how?
While I think you can get to my point with either of the links, a lot more is going on in those links that will confuse and complicate the path. The simple point is that without available resources (typically money) to bid for additionaly output one simply has no way to bid resouces away from other production/uses and increase output of X (here public toilets) in a market.
I agree that destitute people are unable to bid resources away from other uses. And that this is relevant in the case of any good a destitute person may desire (food, bathroom access, XBox games, airline tickets, etc). I suspect that you believe toilets are a special case where the government should intervene because destitute people will pollute public spaces if they are unable to access toilets. Is that right?
In a pure sense public goods only exist in theory. But there are good that seem to behave a lot like the theoretical good. Looking at a situation through the lens of public goods then provides some useful insights. In this case, the idea of public bathrooms is all about making toilets available to anyone in the area who needs one. In other words it really is not about specific bathroom/toilets but toilet services where one will be available to anyone needing it rather than them needing to use the alley or pay for access.
I agree that “making toilets available to anyone in the area who needs one” is a genuine policy objective. But the policy objective and the related service, toilet access, are not the same thing. And there is no question of whether or not the policy objective is a pubic good, as that’s just a category error. And toilets are distinctly excludable, so they are not even quasi-public goods.
But maybe I’m still misunderstanding you regarding the public goods issue.
If the lens of public goods is not helpful then perhaps look at positive externalities. The two are fairly closely related with regard to the question you’re asking about. Tyler Cowan’s blurb (scroll down a littel) on Public Goods and Externalities notes how markets will under produce goods with positive external effects.
Again, this is a general point. One can bring in additional details to support the claim that the existing outcome is optimal or to support the claim that it is not optimal. But that was the point of my comment. We cannot just start with market outcome and claim success.
Again, this is a general point. One can bring in additional details to support the claim that the existing outcome is optimal or to support the claim that it is not optimal. But that was the point of my comment. We cannot just start with market outcome and claim success.
You’ve convinced me that my initial comment was mistaken in another way. Specifically, if I haven’t specified an objective (eg, less than 150 incidents of people shitting in San Francisco streets each year, or, every point in San Francisco is within .25 miles of at least 4 free to use bathrooms), then it is meaningless to suggest that it is currently being satisfied. So, insofar that I suggested that an objective involving bathrooms was likely being satisfied (specifically I suggested that we don’t need more bathrooms, but relative to what objective?) without actually specifying that objective, my comment was meaningless.
(Maybe I made this mistake because in my thinking I failed to distinguish between the market equilibrium and objectives.)
If the lens of public goods is not helpful then perhaps look at positive externalities. The two are fairly closely related with regard to the question you’re asking about. Tyler Cowan’s blurb (scroll down a littel) on Public Goods and Externalities notes how markets will under produce goods with positive external effects.
Thanks for the link. Is it the case that people not shitting in the street is a positive externality?
And when you say “under produce” do you mean relative to the market equilibrium for bathrooms or some objective involving bathrooms?
I think there are some disconnects here.
I do agree that the mere fact “markets” are not providing some quantity of publicly accessable bathrooms is hardly an argument that we have a good equalibrium quantity—or even a good nominal/social want quantity.
However, my experience in the USA is that the overwhelming (like on the order of 80%) of the bathrooms I’ve used in public were in fact on private property and privately provided—be they gas stations, shopping malls/stores, restaurants/cafes and the like. Sometimes I will use ones in a (mostly public?) place such as state tourist stops on interstates or highway reststops or in airports and some subway systems. (Many of those as actually private but clearly a contract out solution with government specifying what the services will be). I also note that in a sizable number of cases the more public solutions are pretty poor, unsanitary and often even dangerous.
I do have some agreement with the eye96458 in that it seems a very localized problem for some urban centers and not really a general issue for the USA in general.
Would you provide your reasoning for this? I’m interested in understanding it.
[This will not be well detailed but hope provides a sense of why I made the claim.]
The most obvious one, and perhaps directly revelant here, is the concept of effective demand—in a market setting those without the money to buy goods or services lack any effective demand. I would concede that alone is not sufficient (or necessary) to reject the claim. But it does point to a way markets do fail to allocate resources to arguably valuable ends. But effective demand failures often produce social and governmental incentives to provide the effective demand for those without resources to pay themselves.
I think one can see two lines of though pointing towards under provision when considering social/government responses to the presense of ineffective demand. The standard economic market failure of under provision of public goods. The other is the issue of narrow and broad insterest in how government/public funds get spent. It’s not clear to me how strong any narrow interest for increasing public toilets are in terms of driving that spending.
I don’t think the public good → under provision (outside some expected range of what a proper market equalibrium should produce) is something one just assumes. Would have to look into things more closely. But the same holds for the “we have markets so it’s all good” type argument too. As is generally the case, the devil is in the details and not the general propositions.
I want to clarify a few things before trying to respond substantively.
I don’t have a well-developed understanding of economics and I’m confused about what meaning the term “effective demand” has in this context.
Are you using it the same way that Keynes uses it in The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money?
Or, are you using the term as it is used in this Wikipedia article?
Or, maybe instead, can you tell me what is the difference between demand and effective demand?
I suspect that you are trying to highlight that destitute people still have preferences even though they do not have any resources to aid in realizing those preferences, but I’m not sure.
After doing a bit of reading, it appears to me that one of the required criteria for something to be a public good is for it to be non-excludable. But aren’t bathrooms very excludable? Just put a lock on the door that will only open after swiping a credit card.
Are you pointing out that the homeless have a narrow interest (in the technical economic sense) in the government operating free to use bathrooms?
While I think you can get to my point with either of the links, a lot more is going on in those links that will confuse and complicate the path. The simple point is that without available resources (typically money) to bid for additionaly output one simply has no way to bid resouces away from other production/uses and increase output of X (here public toilets) in a market.
In a pure sense public goods only exist in theory. But there are good that seem to behave a lot like the theoretical good. Looking at a situation through the lens of public goods then provides some useful insights. In this case, the idea of public bathrooms is all about making toilets available to anyone in the area who needs one. In other words it really is not about specific bathroom/toilets but toilet services where one will be available to anyone needing it rather than them needing to use the alley or pay for access.
So if some are shitting in the alleys, and they are not doing so even when they could have used a toilet, then seems the view that current market equalibrium might be off. The two points above just point to reasons why it might be off. Note, that doesn’t mean it is, it’s generally understood that the social equalibrium is not expected to be a 0 (be it polution, or people shitting on the street) solution. We should not assume what is is what should be.
Homeless people may have narrow interests but they have no direct political infulence generally; they cannot do lobbying well and don’t represent a concentrated voting block (probably cannot vote at all lacking a home address). The general public is not a narrow, well organized group that wants to eliminate shitting in the alley by providing increased levels of toilet services. So in some way the poltical eonomy equalibrium is some shitting in the alley, and the (to me at least) kind of obvious under provision of some public good (which might be public toilets, cleaner streets and healthier envionments)
Taking a step back, let me just grant that people shitting in the streets is good evidence that the current price of using a bathroom is too high for some people who would, all else equal, rather use a bathroom than shit in the streets (So, insofar that my original comment suggested that the cost of using the bathroom was cheap enough that anyone who wanted to shit could afford to use a bathroom, I am retracting it.).
And if one’s goal is to reduce the amount of shitting in the streets, then reducing the cost of using the bathroom is a good strategy. And it is possible that the best way to reduce the cost of using the bathroom is to fund bathrooms with tax money.
Then I suspect we are just having a straightforward disagreement over:
Should the government make using the bathroom cheaper?
If so, how?
I agree that destitute people are unable to bid resources away from other uses. And that this is relevant in the case of any good a destitute person may desire (food, bathroom access, XBox games, airline tickets, etc). I suspect that you believe toilets are a special case where the government should intervene because destitute people will pollute public spaces if they are unable to access toilets. Is that right?
I agree that “making toilets available to anyone in the area who needs one” is a genuine policy objective. But the policy objective and the related service, toilet access, are not the same thing. And there is no question of whether or not the policy objective is a pubic good, as that’s just a category error. And toilets are distinctly excludable, so they are not even quasi-public goods.
But maybe I’m still misunderstanding you regarding the public goods issue.
If the lens of public goods is not helpful then perhaps look at positive externalities. The two are fairly closely related with regard to the question you’re asking about. Tyler Cowan’s blurb (scroll down a littel) on Public Goods and Externalities notes how markets will under produce goods with positive external effects.
Again, this is a general point. One can bring in additional details to support the claim that the existing outcome is optimal or to support the claim that it is not optimal. But that was the point of my comment. We cannot just start with market outcome and claim success.
You’ve convinced me that my initial comment was mistaken in another way. Specifically, if I haven’t specified an objective (eg, less than 150 incidents of people shitting in San Francisco streets each year, or, every point in San Francisco is within .25 miles of at least 4 free to use bathrooms), then it is meaningless to suggest that it is currently being satisfied. So, insofar that I suggested that an objective involving bathrooms was likely being satisfied (specifically I suggested that we don’t need more bathrooms, but relative to what objective?) without actually specifying that objective, my comment was meaningless.
(Maybe I made this mistake because in my thinking I failed to distinguish between the market equilibrium and objectives.)
Thanks for the link. Is it the case that people not shitting in the street is a positive externality?
And when you say “under produce” do you mean relative to the market equilibrium for bathrooms or some objective involving bathrooms?