You’re talking about killing that driver. The actual villain in the story. I don’t have any particular problem with vengeance, I often advocate it. But that’s an entirely different to killing Mortimer Q. Snodgrass, who lives at 128 Ordinary Ln. just because… well… you really want to kill somebody. This isn’t even a case of finding a different driver who also happens to be reckless and likely to kill people like your friend. This is choosing to kill someone with a AAA driving rating who you have no reason at all to suspect is dangerous.
Not to the Kerchers. It doesn’t seem that way to them at all. As far as they are concerned, Amanda Knox killed Meredith. And they have evidence and multiple court rulings that agree with them.
Even leaving aside the difference between saying that a behavior resolves as evil and calling a person evil I suggest it is you who is failing at empathy here (partially as a result of the aforementioned simple comprehension error).
There’s a slight issue here in that I changed my wording slightly after I posted the comment so that I referred to the Kerchers and their desires. I think that this is a fair response since the subject of your verb is “wanting”. I don’t think you are appreciating the epistemological issue here. They believe, quite sincerely that Amanda Knox is guilty. They are almost certainly wrong in that belief. But they don’t have a desire to harm a random person.
I am empathizing here with all the victims of blatantly irrational persecution. The lives destroyed because people use their social influence to make their community destroy others because of their own willful stupidity.
How much of that stupidity is willful and how much is just deep cognitive issues that would ensnare almost any human? This isn’t akin to Joseph Priestly trying desperately to think of any hypothesis he could to defend phlogiston becuase that’s his preferred hypothesis.
There may be a communication issue here in that your sentence starting “wanting” seemed to be the main jumping off point of my comment. I interpreted that as referring to the desire not any relevant act, since well, wanting is an emotional state.
Not to the Kerchers. It doesn’t seem that way to them at all. As far as they are concerned, Amanda Knox killed Meredith.
I don’t place as much moral weight as I once did on what people believe. This is heavily influenced by an improved model of what relationships beliefs have with behavior and instinct. In humans. There really was a time when I considered self deception a worthwhile excuse for subsequent bad behavior rather than just what it often takes for us to get away with what we are motivated to do anyway.
If we are going to have any success at things like raising the sanity waterline, we need to understand how and when human reasoning fails. And we need to appreciate how much that depends on circumstances. In the same way that almost any of us if we were born in the US in 1810 would have been in favor of slavery, and almost any of us born in 1930 would have been against interracial marriage, it is important to understand that we don’t have some magic gift of rationality. If one of us were in the same situation as the Kerchers, we’d likely react the same way, and I’d go so far as to say that even someone as highly rational as most LWians with all the experience and awareness of cognitive biases would still likely react the same way.
To destroy bias we must understand it.
There really was a time when I considered self deception a worthwhile excuse for subsequent bad behavior rather than just what it often takes for us to get away with what we are motivated to do anyway.
I don’t see a motivation that the Kerchers would be motivated to harm Amanda Knox other than their belief that she killed their daughter. In this context, what do you think is the underlying motive that they are engaging in self-deception to accomplish?
I don’t see a motivation that the Kerchers would be motivated to harm Amanda Knox other than their belief that she killed their daughter. In this context, what do you think is the underlying motive that they are engaging in self-deception to accomplish?
They—and their lawyer—have a pecuniary incentive to seek a verdict against Knox and Sollecito, since it would entail the imposition of monetary damages in the millions of euros. Needless to say, Rudy Guédé′s financial rescources are almost certainly not comparable to those of Knox and Sollecito (even though the latter two aren’t themselves extraordinarily wealthy).
Of course, this probably doesn’t directly pass into their conscious motivation; but it still likely affects their judgement.
You are correct. I’m at least ten years too late and probably more like 20 or 30 years too late. The essential point goes through with the corrected time.
I don’t see a motivation that the Kerchers would be motivated to harm Amanda Knox other than their belief that she killed their daughter. In this context, what do you think is the underlying motive that they are engaging in self-deception to accomplish?
I can’t speak for wedrifid, obviously, but the one that immediately suggests itself to me is the desire for satisfaction and closure- it’s more comforting to believe Amanda Knox killed their daughter than some random stranger they know nothing about who may or may not ever be caught.
Oh. Oops. (Reads up on trial.) In that case, the only vaguely credible hypothesis I can see is some kind of unconscious consistency effect / sunk costs fallacy thing, where recanting a belief that has been proven to be mistaken is perceived as tremendously more costly and difficult than it actually is. Or something. Maybe wedrifid could clarify what he meant?
According to the motivation document from Guédé′s appeal trial, it was reduced due to mitigating circumstances (difficult childhood, intended to turn himself in, apologized to Kercher family for “not coming to Meredith’s aid”).
I don’t think that sentence is that far off what I’d expect in Italy. In general, prison sentences in most of Western Europe are much shorter than they are in the US.
I think it’s believed that the crime had to have been committed by more than one person, so now they do have to deal with not having caught/convicted Guede’s accomplice(s), whoever that is.
I think it’s believed that the crime had to have been committed by more than one person
No; that theory is subscribed to almost exclusively by people who believe Knox and Sollecito are guilty. Knox and Sollecito’s defense argued (almost certainly correctly) that Guédé acted alone.
There really was a time when I considered self deception a worthwhile excuse for subsequent bad behavior rather than just what it often takes for us to get away with what we are motivated to do anyway.
So...in your opinion, the Kerchers are so motivated to cause harm to an innocent young woman that they have deceived themselves into believing she is guilty of the murder of their daughter, so that they can get away with it? Why? What exactly is the point of that? I suppose if you really think their daughter’s death has made them want to kill random innocent people, the whole “evil” angle is more understandable, but that hypothesis really does not make sense to me.
So...in your opinion, the Kerchers are so motivated to cause harm to an innocent young woman that they have deceived themselves into believing she is guilty of the murder of their daughter, so that they can get away with it?
No. Not even remotely.
Now is perhaps not the best time to attempt a detailed high quality discussion of all the various motivating factors behind seeking skapegoats.
I don’t know about how the word “evil” should be wired up in our minds, but I do think that callously disapproving of the negligence is an appropriate reaction to have, and if I view use of the word “evil” as a part of that, I’m okay with it.
Not to the Kerchers. It doesn’t seem that way to them at all. As far as they are concerned, Amanda Knox killed Meredith. And they have evidence and multiple court rulings that agree with them.
There’s a slight issue here in that I changed my wording slightly after I posted the comment so that I referred to the Kerchers and their desires. I think that this is a fair response since the subject of your verb is “wanting”. I don’t think you are appreciating the epistemological issue here. They believe, quite sincerely that Amanda Knox is guilty. They are almost certainly wrong in that belief. But they don’t have a desire to harm a random person.
How much of that stupidity is willful and how much is just deep cognitive issues that would ensnare almost any human? This isn’t akin to Joseph Priestly trying desperately to think of any hypothesis he could to defend phlogiston becuase that’s his preferred hypothesis.
There may be a communication issue here in that your sentence starting “wanting” seemed to be the main jumping off point of my comment. I interpreted that as referring to the desire not any relevant act, since well, wanting is an emotional state.
I don’t place as much moral weight as I once did on what people believe. This is heavily influenced by an improved model of what relationships beliefs have with behavior and instinct. In humans. There really was a time when I considered self deception a worthwhile excuse for subsequent bad behavior rather than just what it often takes for us to get away with what we are motivated to do anyway.
If we are going to have any success at things like raising the sanity waterline, we need to understand how and when human reasoning fails. And we need to appreciate how much that depends on circumstances. In the same way that almost any of us if we were born in the US in 1810 would have been in favor of slavery, and almost any of us born in 1930 would have been against interracial marriage, it is important to understand that we don’t have some magic gift of rationality. If one of us were in the same situation as the Kerchers, we’d likely react the same way, and I’d go so far as to say that even someone as highly rational as most LWians with all the experience and awareness of cognitive biases would still likely react the same way.
To destroy bias we must understand it.
I don’t see a motivation that the Kerchers would be motivated to harm Amanda Knox other than their belief that she killed their daughter. In this context, what do you think is the underlying motive that they are engaging in self-deception to accomplish?
They—and their lawyer—have a pecuniary incentive to seek a verdict against Knox and Sollecito, since it would entail the imposition of monetary damages in the millions of euros. Needless to say, Rudy Guédé′s financial rescources are almost certainly not comparable to those of Knox and Sollecito (even though the latter two aren’t themselves extraordinarily wealthy).
Of course, this probably doesn’t directly pass into their conscious motivation; but it still likely affects their judgement.
Did most American citizens really support slavery then? Most Northerners and many Southerners opposed it, especially from the 1830′s onward.
You are correct. I’m at least ten years too late and probably more like 20 or 30 years too late. The essential point goes through with the corrected time.
http://lesswrong.com/lw/uy/dark_side_epistemology/4xbv
I can’t speak for wedrifid, obviously, but the one that immediately suggests itself to me is the desire for satisfaction and closure- it’s more comforting to believe Amanda Knox killed their daughter than some random stranger they know nothing about who may or may not ever be caught.
The random stranger was caught within a month: his name is Rudy Guédé, and he was sentenced to 16 years in prison for the crime.
Oh. Oops. (Reads up on trial.) In that case, the only vaguely credible hypothesis I can see is some kind of unconscious consistency effect / sunk costs fallacy thing, where recanting a belief that has been proven to be mistaken is perceived as tremendously more costly and difficult than it actually is. Or something. Maybe wedrifid could clarify what he meant?
Is that a normal sentence? Reduced for testifying?
According to the motivation document from Guédé′s appeal trial, it was reduced due to mitigating circumstances (difficult childhood, intended to turn himself in, apologized to Kercher family for “not coming to Meredith’s aid”).
I don’t think that sentence is that far off what I’d expect in Italy. In general, prison sentences in most of Western Europe are much shorter than they are in the US.
I think it’s believed that the crime had to have been committed by more than one person, so now they do have to deal with not having caught/convicted Guede’s accomplice(s), whoever that is.
No; that theory is subscribed to almost exclusively by people who believe Knox and Sollecito are guilty. Knox and Sollecito’s defense argued (almost certainly correctly) that Guédé acted alone.
So...in your opinion, the Kerchers are so motivated to cause harm to an innocent young woman that they have deceived themselves into believing she is guilty of the murder of their daughter, so that they can get away with it? Why? What exactly is the point of that? I suppose if you really think their daughter’s death has made them want to kill random innocent people, the whole “evil” angle is more understandable, but that hypothesis really does not make sense to me.
No. Not even remotely.
Now is perhaps not the best time to attempt a detailed high quality discussion of all the various motivating factors behind seeking skapegoats.
Ok, well, bad guess on my part, then.
Indeed I don’t see much motivation to seek out a scapegoat in a case where the real killer has been found and convicted.
I’m just saying...maybe they’re just wrong? Sometimes that happens?
My interpretation of Wedrifid’s point here is something along the lines of:
If you are going to advocate the kind of punishment sought against Amanda Knox, you have an obligation to hold yourself to high epistemic standards.
The evidence used to convict her fell so far short of that as to constitute dangerous negligence.
I endorse this (and suspect wedrifid does too, but I need only speak for myself).
Yes, it seems about right.
I agree with that too, but I still disagree on the “evil” thing.
I don’t know about how the word “evil” should be wired up in our minds, but I do think that callously disapproving of the negligence is an appropriate reaction to have, and if I view use of the word “evil” as a part of that, I’m okay with it.
This would make Wedrifid’s position understandable to me, which is otherwise mysterious. OK… updated.